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#1001 10 May 2022 4:23 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 373

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Chuck I’m anxious to know how the rest of your outing went!

And about your lead ballast: did you use what you gleaned ‘as-received’ or did you do some reshaping for your ultimate purpose?

Last w/e I learned of a potential source of lead scrap I can ‘mine’ for ballast, with a little effort added involving first cleaning it of contaminants then smelting & casting.

Martin you may have something to add on this, given your history of projects boat- and car-wise!!

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#1002 10 May 2022 6:57 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 265

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi all! I am following all of your builds and voyages with great interest.

I don't have too much to add on the question of ballast, as I have decided for my purposes that the 'out of water' weight has to be kept to a minimum. My ballast  is therefore confined to water ballast which can be filled and emptied as required when on the water.

My only comment relating to lead smelting and casting is, I am sure, something you all already know. It is extremely toxic so do be very, very careful not to inhale lead fumes or dust, or get it on your skin or clothes! I am not usually overly cautious about these things, but lead really is very nasty.

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#1003 14 May 2022 5:45 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 373

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Using lead for ballast's my Plan F or G, better to try water first as much as possible for those reasons. Or get by with as little as possible, why I'm bothering with the ama addition.

Getting started with 'glassing 'em today, very pleased with how they're turning out at this point. Experiences with main hull really helped me get up to speed with techniques appropriate for epoxy.

Getting_-Glass_on.jpg

I'm using a different order-of-application than suggested in the build manual for putting 'glass on these things, seems more appropriate & puts all the fairing with a mind to water flowing aft. Also puts some extra layers at points of high stress. With the thinner ply I'm using this may be helpful for keeping 'em together.

I'd intended to weigh 'em before I rolled on the sealer coat earlier this week but got ahead of myself before I realized the opportunity was gone. Will weigh 'em once the 'glassing's complete; curious what you others might see if you try this!

Working towards getting all this ready for an event coming up early next month, been invited to join a local bunch 'convoying' up to Lake Pepin north of where I am. This year it's June 3-5, just two more weekends, getting really close!!

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#1004 29 May 2022 9:50 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 373

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Two weeks w/o a post from other forumites? You must all be out sailing!!

I'm still at it with the ama + aka stability addition. Got aka saddles positioned last evening, today saw me using both sides of the garage to finagle a nice alignment of the aka in 'em.

Mounting_Aka.jpg

Mounting_Aka_2.jpg

Measuring from main hull's bow to the centerpoint of each outboard ama mounting bolt hole I quit fiddling when the numbers came out equal at 96-21/32" (245.51 cm). When time comes (SOON!!) to mount the amas, I'll use the final placement of their inboard bolt holes to finesse getting each ama's bow equidistant from the main hull's bow as per plans.

Looking ahead to next weekend's Messabout leaves me thinking I may be rushing things. And the weather forecast's not as enticing as it was a week ago either. So it may be a bit before I get this new combination launched this season.

Last edited by spclark (30 May 2022 3:48 pm)

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#1005 10 Jun 2022 11:58 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 373

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

My heavens... what a different experience having the amas attached makes! Went out yesterday with the guy who taught me the rudiments of sailing 50 years ago on a smallish 'impoundment' pond an hour's drive away. Beautiful day, nice breeze blowing directly at the boat launch but enough to put an ama into the water up to its deck a few times while we tacked back & forth. Then a slow run down wind to the south end followed by 90 minutes' tacking back to the launch. This was with the main set in midships position, no reefs and him acting as 'movable' ballast while minding the sheet. I simply manned the tiller & hunkered down in the cockpit so I could see under the boom.

I'm so glad I lobbied for the ama kit from CLC after reading Guy's initial posts regarding stability! Where I am, considering my age and sailing skills in general, I'd rarely venture out under sail ever again without the amas attached.

Bottom line is a Waterlust needs ballast first to be practical in pretty much any conditions under sail. Mirage drive is fine if that's all one needs to get enjoyment out of it, but add a sail and you're into advanced skills sailing to keep it upright. Going out solo's my next challenge with the amas attached and the main alone with a reef - maybe two -  tied in, and those drive well tanks filled with water.

Need to tighten up the rigging, and the connection between rudder arm & tiller extension. Loose doesn't lend itself to careful adjustments to heading! Maybe add a compass too over 'landmarking' for an aimpoint.

I screwed up not wiping the memory card in my GoPro camera so I have about five minutes' video of the start of our time on the water. Spent an hour trying to get ready at the dock, interrupted several times by fisherpeople wanting to pull their boats out...wasted what storage space had been on that card with junk....

5 minutes from the very start; lots of bow wake noise. Have to do better next time + an empty SD card:

Amas_On

Last edited by spclark (11 Jun 2022 2:05 pm)

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#1006 12 Jun 2022 5:20 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 265

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Just back from extended holiday so have only just seen your posts SP. Well done!
Lovely job with the Amas!
I agree completely with your third para. After a delayed start to the sailing season, I now hope to do some serious trials with the heavy daggerboard and water ballast in the drive well tanks.
Good sailing!

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#1007 12 Jun 2022 2:23 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 373

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks Martin! Hope your holiday was enjoyable!

Looking forward to reading / seeing what you discover with your trials!

As for me I'll be limiting my future posts here to replies to others' contributions & questions + updates on my discoveries as I learn better how to navigate with this creature I've created.

Already decided she needs a bow eye, the better to deal with trailer launch & recovery. That's up for today, among other more home-centric activities.

Thanks to all who've contributed, and particularly Bergen Guy for authoring this, now magnum opus-length thread over two years ago.

Last edited by spclark (12 Jun 2022 2:24 pm)

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#1008 16 Jun 2022 12:13 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 373

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

spclark wrote:

...updates on my discoveries....

On that tack I'd like to share (with permission) comments I received from Patrick Rynne, PhD, founder and CEO of the Waterlust.com outfit. I'd queried them last week looking to learn what their experiences had been after they commissioned the project by CLC that brought forth the Waterlust expedition canoe design and then kits.

"So cool to see the amas! After sailing the canoes down the coast, I definitely was craving some more stability. Unless it was really light wind, I couldn't sail the boat while sitting in the seat, and instead sat on the rail or even stood up. I actually found standing up to be some of the most enjoyable sailing on the trip. Still remember this particular day where we had perfect conditions

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-5SGyylZsn/

We kept the boats for a year or so, and then gave them back to CLC because we weren't sailing them much down here in Miami. I believe they sold one of them and kept the other as a demo boat.

So glad folks are enjoying these boats. They are tricky to sail and there is a lot going on with the two sails, but when things are dialed in, they are pretty magical feeling. Hope you have many adventures with it!"

"I've been selling high-performance boats my entire life, including an Olympic campaign in the very unstable 49er class. I will say that without amas, the Waterlust canoe is definitely one of the hardest boats I've ever had to sail in a solid breeze. The super narrow beam, two 2 sail plan with top-heavy rig, and criss-cross tiller extension arrangement makes the entire experience challenging. On our adventure down the intercoastal, I found this challenge extremely invigorating, as I enjoy trying to master sailing a boat that is innately difficult. Others in our group, including my wife who has little dinghy experience, enjoyed that challenge far less ?

So definitely don't attribute the challenge to your age, we had friends in their 20s here in Miami sail the boats for the first time and immediately flipped. It's not an age thing, they are just hard to sail when fully powered up.

A couple years ago our family got a Hobie tandem island with retractable amas. It's a great little boat and the amas made it far easier to sail and relax on. Can bring the dog too (video below)

https://www.instagram.com/p/B98AwZ2F-8E/"

"Yes, absolutely! I'd also add that having the boat fully loaded with camping gear helped. On days we had the storage ports filled (which Dillon designed the boat for), the center of gravity was noticeably lower and the boat was more stable. On days we had little gear in the boat, it was much sportier.

But overall, I'd prefer the boat with amas for long distances where you need to save energy and relax...and I like it as a canoe without amas for short, exciting outings in 5-10 knots that challenge my sailing abilities, or with no rig and just the pedal drive for exploring."

Seems our collective experience mirrors theirs; we're not so crazy after all!

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#1009 17 Jun 2022 2:53 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 265

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks SP. Very interesting and comforting to know that it is not just us 'old timers' who found the rig to be challenging!

I have just returned from a sail this morning in 14-18 knots of wind (force 4) on the Norfolk Broads (lake conditions) and although this will only be of academic interest to those of you who have gone down the amas route, this is what I found with my 15kg steel daggerboard and smaller mainsail (equivalent in size to one reef in the mainsail which comes with the kit).

In general it was very manageable and I did the entire 4 hour sail from the pedalling position sitting on the floor on my inflatable canoe seat. At no time did I  hike out or raise myself off the seat although it felt as if I should, but I held my nerve and rather than tipping over (which it felt it would), the boat merely rounded up in the gusts. As the wind rose to a steady 18 knots this weather helm became rather tiresome (and tiring on the tilller arm!), so I lowered the mizzen and the boat sailed fantastically well under the mainsail alone. Obviously windward performance was poor like this, but by pedal-sailing to windward I was able to point as high if not higher than the other dinghies out on the water and the downwind experience was stable and exhilarating!

I have still much to learn, particularly about controlling the two sheets and the tiller with only two hands! How do others manage with this? I ended up holding the mizzen sheet in my left hand and the tiller and main sheet in my right, but this resulted in the main sheet being tightened when the tiller is pulled and slackened when the tiller is pushed!  Through experimentation I learnt that it is the mizzen which needs most attention (as it is it, rather than the mainsail which will cause the boat to heel in a gust)  and although I haven't tried this, I guess the mainsheet could be cleated for much of the time. Next time I have a reasonable breeze, I might put on a wetsuit and push this to the limit.

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#1010 17 Jun 2022 4:55 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 373

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Wow. Fascinating bit about working mizzen! I’d always held what I’d been told that it ought to be “set & forget” but what you’re suggesting is exact opposite!

Yet the 33 lb d’board you’ve fashioned may be playing a part, eh? With the stock ‘organic’ one the rest of us use, ballasting seems to be mandatory for predictable performance in anything beyond zephyr-like conditions!

I’m taking notes from Patrick’s videos about rigging details. The prototype appears much less complicated; adding reefs & such adds more cordage, as does the mizzen of course. My outing last week proved that windward can be done under main alone but we had it set in the rear main pocket, not the forward one so there’s that to consider.

I’ll be watching for comments from the other regulars here about all this.

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#1011 18 Jun 2022 8:12 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 265

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Yes. I admit that I mentioned earlier on this forum that the mizzen was a 'set and forget' item, as it had been on my earlier boat which was a much heavier vessel than the Waterlust. You certainly can't cleat the mizzen sheet on a Waterlust!
I am sure there will be a technique for handling the two sheets simultaneously, but I haven't mastered it yet.
I look forward to hearing from Guy or Chuck how they cope with this issue.

I agree with simplifying the rigging to an absolute minimum. In my view, with two sails there is enough going on without having to bother with reefing lines and lazyjacks.

One other mizzen myth I am afraid I am responsible for. I learnt yesterday that 'scandalising' the mizzen  doesn't work on a Waterlust in any reasonable amount of wind. If you do this (raising the boom rather than dropping the sail), the wind still gets into the sail and interferes with the handling. There is no alternative to lowing the sail completely, but I found that this is relatively easy by going head to wind, releasing the halyard and downhaul and then pulling in the sheet to bring the boom yard and sail further forward where you can tie the sheet around the whole lot and secure it.

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#1012 25 Jun 2022 7:15 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 99

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Waterlusters-

I would say that I treat the mizzen as more set-and-forget.  Going upwind, I will adjust the sheet until the helm is neutral and then cleat it, managing puffs by easing the main as needed.  Going downwind, I set it approximately, but then might swing it over when gybing, or when there is low wind and I am trying to go wing-on-wing to maximize sail area.  Of course, I have been sailing with a two person crew a good portion of the time, making it easier to adjust the mizzen while steering while the forward crew handles the main and moving around to 'trim ballast'.

I've got to say I am also a little glad to hear that the original Waterlusters found this boat to be quite tender, which I would certainly agree with!  When I sail alone, I put in 120# of lead, and when I sail with crew I put in 60#.  I still find it amazing that a really popular incarnation for this type of boat in its heyday is 16-foot long, with only a 30-inch beam (!), and 100 sq. ft. of sail.  That must have been an extraordinarily tender boat!

   -Chuck

Last edited by Chuck (25 Jun 2022 7:43 pm)

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#1013 25 Jun 2022 7:29 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 99

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Since we have now entered the time of year with perpetually low winds, I can take a bit more time to write here.  I've been out traveling quite a bit more in the past month, with a good portion of that going to sailing the Waterlust.  I put about 3000 miles on the little Trailex trailer with the small "8 inch" wheels, and am glad that it has held up perfectly so far.

I've previously mentioned my trip to Cedar Key in early May (and I will post more photos soon).  After dealing with high winds the first two days (keeping people from sailing), the third day was a steady 10-12 knots and perfect for sailing.  I went out for a 15-mile trip to some of the outlying keys, and got about 2-3 miles out from the town at times (nothing between us and Cuba but the Gulf!).  The boat handled really well and was a lot of fun!  But, as I found out later, the key was the excellent crew (a young guy with competitive collegiate dinghy racing experience):

I went out a couple of weeks later to the CLC Big Little Boat Festival on the Chesapeake Bay and had quite a different experience.  My normal crew didn't go on this trip, and I sailed with a local friend with decades of racing experience in 27-foot boats.  However, in the first couple of minutes of being out in ~8 knot winds we got closer to capsizing than I ever have been before in this boat, with the gunwale submerged and the water within 1 inch of pouring into the cockpit.  After a continuing long stretch of severe rolling, it was clear that we were not going to do the 20-mile race safely out on the Bay the next day.  The new crew was not quite as agile shifting weight with the wind, and it made a huge difference in the stability of the boat.

I was hoping to have the amas available for this race, but they still needed a couple of days work when I had to leave for the trip, so it was done without the outrigger kit.  Hopefully I will finish it up soon and will experience the same large increase in stability that Guy and SP have written about!

And on the building front, I will post some photos of the system I used to place the chair (not really a better word for it) in a raised and adjustable position for operating the Mirage drive.  I hacked it together, but it does work decently well.  I think the main issue with the stock cane chair is that it just takes up a lot of room, and is not trivial to move from the installed position to back under the rear deck when under way with crew in the boat.  In Cedar Key we sailed two in the boat with the chair installed, and successfully stowed it underway, but it was not easy; a smaller and more clever seat would be much better.

Also still on the building agenda are lazy jacks (I find that I have been sailing reefed quite a bit and would like to be able to do it better on the water), and a rope tiller system running around the cockpit.  And of course, there is always the jib to figure out -- with this perpetual low wind it might be just the thing to add for a fun time out!  It seems that I am still in the likes-to-pull-lots-of-strings phase, with this boat just more to handle that all the other sailboats I saw at Cedar Key and in Maryland.  Of course, it is still a long way from Martin's gaff-rigged topsail boat! smile

   -Chuck

Last edited by Chuck (25 Jun 2022 7:52 pm)

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#1014 25 Jun 2022 7:54 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 373

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

You'll like those amas Chuck! My experience a couple of weeks back with a 150# crew wouldn't have happened without them! We'd have gone over more than once with the conditions we'd gone out in otherwise!

Good numbers on your lead ballasting, thanks! Water's ~ 60 lbs./cu.ft. so there's ample volume in that storage compartment for either water or lead, the latter being rather more in need of a safe and practical plan for obtaining as well as managing both for securing and when not in use. An e-mail earlier from Michael Storer arrived earlier, leading me to his discussions of making DIY dry storage bags using PVC-reinforced fabric, which ought to lend itself to making up a water ballast 'bag'.

There's newer stuff there too of course; the subject of that missive illustrates a clever way to hasten reefing that may be applicable to our crafts.

I've made up some custom ratchet tie-downs that don't have the metal bits at a place that damages my hull. 1" polyester webbing from Sailrite.com is great stuff for this! 100 feet leaves me with ample material that may come in handy for securing whatever ballast I may end up with. After the tie-downs I made up a 'belt' with two stainless D-rings for securing my main mast & aka at the front of the cockpit for trailering, using the aft eyes on the aka saddles. I can envision all kinds of ways to use some of the leftover webbing...

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