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#876 8 Sep 2021 4:06 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 328

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Martin_C thanks for your comments!

And I’ll add I’m in 100% agreement on all of them!

Being new to this kind of watercraft and its rigging options, I was anxious to try adding the mizzen when perhaps it’d have been better to go out on this lake (my first time) with the reefed main alone, if not just the mizzen set on the main mast.

I’d bought a small battery-operated siphon pump to add water to those drivewell side tanks but was too hasty in leaving the dock to think it necessary… my bad.

Add the unfamiliar conditions and the time it took getting to the lake then launched, I was ‘behind schedule’ for my day’s plans so nature took control & brought things to a sudden halt.

Auto bilge pump paid for itself in this one outing! I’d have been bailing by hand, a gallon at a throw while hanging off the side had it not been installed & running. There was too much water aboard for me to believe I could get back on w/o risking another capsize before half or more of the water’d been rid of, about equal to my weight.

All’s well that ends well. Recovery was straightforward, nothing lost to the 30’ depths and I’m anxious to get back out again ASAP albeit better prepared than the last time.

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#877 8 Sep 2021 9:00 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 86

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Wow, SP -- very instructive.  I think you handled your unexpected swim well.  And now I am thinking that I really need to add some battery powered pumps into my boat!  I was surprised by how much yours filled up, and don't like to think of how long it would take to bail with a 1-gallon scoop!

I'll second Martin on the need to have quick releasing cleats.  The only place I have a horn cleat is for docking and anchor lines, and for the mizzen halyard.  All my downhauls, sheets, and even the main halyard are on cam cleats so I can dump them instantly in case something comes up.  A tiller tether is also a very necessary item -- when my rudder got knocked off in a bad docking experience, it was the only thing still holding everything to the boat.

I haven't run into trouble yet clamping my tiller, but I have a mark on it that shows me when I am amidships, and I only cleat the tiller amidships (even an inch out either way sends me off in a new direction).

And, I now never sail without at least 40l (88#) of water bags in the main hatch.  That will change soon to 100+# pounds of lead once I build in some restraints to keep the lead in place.

I've also invested in a paddle float to help in getting back aboard in case it ever becomes necessary (kayakers know how to do this, and I think it would apply to Waterlusters, too)

And, when sailing, I have also gotten rid of the cane seat and always sit on the side deck, for quick shifting of ballast as necessary.  My additional deck level seat has been extremely useful as it allows easy transitions from sitting on the side deck, to sitting amidships just by sliding over.  And, I can paddle (with a paddle) much easier from up there, too. I think eventually I might even take on the challenge of building a sliding seat; I got some good pictures of the one on Vesper in the museum and now have an idea of how to do it.

The literature states that Paul Butler designed the sliding seat to allow his small frame/low mass to compete on equal footing with more massive sailors; I'm probably of similar shape to Paul, so also have some interest in that direction...

Last edited by Chuck (8 Sep 2021 9:04 pm)

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#878 8 Sep 2021 10:32 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 328

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

From that one brief foray Monday under sails and Mirage drive both I’ve decided it’s either the Mirage OR mizzen, not both… until I become more proficient with boat handling. The cane seat’s fine under Mirage power alone but adding a mizzen changes the dynamic & I’m not that fast a mover anymore, if ever.

I can see using the main alone (whether reefed or not) or the mizzen set on the main mast plus the Mirage drive, but leave the seat and drive ashore when going out with both masts & sails and be ready to move!

Will look forward to what Guy has to say about how adding amas changed his appreciation for what stability a Waterlust exhibits before & after. I have plans for the addition & all I need to add the buoyancy to mine over winter.

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#879 9 Sep 2021 8:24 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 285

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

What a lot I have missed!

First off, thanks for sharing all those photos and discussion on Vesper.  Wonderful to see the details, what an interesting craft. I note particularly that although the rig is large, it's quite low down and with the bat wing sail, there doesn't seem to be so much weight aloft as we have with our standing lug rigs.

SP - I think you handled your capsize very well, and appear to have accepted your swim with a grace and composure I certainly did not match when I had my waterlust baptism! 

Regarding what I can add - I think much has already been said; definitely try to add some weight low down somehow. Even 20 or 30 kgs seems to make a real difference. The amas though are again quite a step up in stability from adding water, I find I can sit quite happily in the bottom in a breeze that would have had me sitting out.  The only other thing I would add is that I feel that quite a lot of the rolling moment comes from the weight of our rigs - I have not weighed mine, but going to the small sail on the shorter mast I felt that the stability of the empty boat was much much greater than when the full rig is up, I think a lot of that has to do simply with the weight of the mainmast and spars, particularly when the main is sheeted well out, and the rolling moment is large. On my first 'almost swim, there was little wind, but the sail was a long way over, a small gust came, and the boat started rolling, i was just lucky that I was quick enough to leap out of the seat and get my weight far enough over to bring the boat back. I was not so quick on other occasions, and have taken a couple of un-planned swims, most due to gusts when I was sitting in, rather than strong wind.

To date no carbon spar manufacturer has responded seriously to my enquiries, so will will probably continue with water ballast if I want a short trip out or Amas if I want to go further out. I have not yet tried to capsize with the amas, which is something I do want to test before too long.

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#880 9 Sep 2021 8:34 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 285

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

2A3A8222-87B2-4600-B7D0-FBEDA366BBB8.jpg

Just another picture for fun. Not windy here, but you can see I am sat happily on my seat (which I leave in, and fold out of the way and kick under the aft deck when things get too hot on the sailing front)

Many ways to make these boats a lot of fun, and less of a handful than how they come ‘out of the box’

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#881 9 Sep 2021 10:51 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 328

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

What an incredibly valuable resource this forum is providing, with a platform for all the different user experiences being related in these pages!

And I have to give particularly solid credit to the FyneBoats crew for making it so easy to
post images!

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#882 9 Sep 2021 11:02 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 86

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

All-

The Michael Storer page on the Viola 14 Rigging Guide , https://www.storerboatplans.com/wp/wp-c … E-2019.pdf,

has details on using aluminum or carbon fiber for spars.  For the Viola 14, that is ~16 foot windsurfer masts (longer than our Waterlust spars of 9-11 feet).

The carbon fiber recommended is "490cm Standard Diameter Mast (SDM) constant curve carbon windsurfer mast", which sounds like it is an off the shelf item...

Last edited by Chuck (9 Sep 2021 11:17 pm)

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#883 10 Sep 2021 1:42 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 328

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Guy your mizzen's set quite a bit higher than mine above the aft deck. I'm curious what the distances are (measured from front or back doesn't matter as long as you specify which, and I'm good with cm besides!) to where you have your halyard and downhaul secured?

I thought I followed the CLC manual's dimensions pretty closely yet my sail is inclined forward to the point the forend of the mizzen boom can get hung up on the downhaul:

Mizzen_Set.jpg Manual-s_Mizzen-set.jpg

Which obviously is Not A Good Thing to have happen.

Chuck I just read that PDF you linked to. CF seems like a high-tech alternative for a main mast on this design with the price for 50% CF content still pretty steep compared to even sitka. Higher %'s are stiffer yet but even lighter though more fragile. You'd still opt for wood spars?

For the rest of this year's sailing season where I am (first frost predicted in five weeks) I'm sticking to reefed main if not putting the mizzen up on ther main mast if the water's at all wide and exposed. Got way too ahead of my 'learning curve' earlier this week with both sails set....

Whoo... I'm approaching 50% of my allocated file upload space too with this post....

Last edited by spclark (10 Sep 2021 1:56 am)

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#884 10 Sep 2021 3:37 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 285

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi SP,  I did start off with marking the spars showing where the halyard and downhaul should go, but on the mizzen particularly they slipped around a bit (I just have them lashed on) so I think they may have moved a bit from where the plans say they should be. Mine are certainly doesn’t get hung up on any of the lines or deck hardware!

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#885 10 Sep 2021 4:08 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 246

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi SP. I also ended up moving the sails around quite a bit. I should move the halyard/yard  fixing point forward by enough to allow the boom to comfortably clear the deck.

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#886 10 Sep 2021 4:35 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 328

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

OK then I’ll aim to mimic the plan view, fuggedabout dimensions ‘suggested!. Thnx!

This video I ran across (son of a local I met yesterday built a CS17 they’re launching for first time this w/e) really shows what I think I experienced on Monday:

https://youtu.be/kH45GfosrGE

though admittedly they helped moving their bodies to starboard side….

Last edited by spclark (10 Sep 2021 4:44 pm)

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#887 10 Sep 2021 6:28 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 86

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi SP-

I also had the same issue with the mizzen being too low (I got my sails from CLC like you did).

I moved my halyard attach point closer to the front to raise the mizzen.  That also moved the CE back a bit, which for me was a good thing to deal with the lee helm I had issues with.  I also reduced the hardware where the halyard attached to the mizzen yard and just tied the halyard directly to the yard with a round turn and a buntline hitch, allowing me to raise the yard up to the maximum possible height on the mast (looks like you may have ~4" more you could haul the mizzen yard up).

I got a reply back from Douglas Fowler, the CLC sailmaker, on the possibility of a jib for the Waterlust.  He sent a very cordial reply with pictures of him sailing some of his personal collection of old decked sailing canoes, but essentially said he was so busy being the production sailmaker for CLC that he wasn't really looking for more work.  He did point me to the two jibs CLC already sells, the NE Dory jib and the Passgemaker jib (15 and 19 sq ft).  Maybe I should send something to Todd Bradshaw and see whether he might be interested in making a custom jib.

I plotted things up and found that the CE of a three sail rig is about 12 inches aft of the stock 80 sq ft rig, and that the jib-mizzen combination puts the CE about the same place as the three-sail rig. 

Obviously, the correct solution is a bowsprit! wink

As for light spars, I am still of a mind to hollow out my mainmast; perhaps a winter project...  I have to admit that my motivation to do this went down a lot once I saw just how much heeling moment there is from the wind, and how much of that could be counteracted by sitting out on the deck.  My goals at the moment are learning how to sail the boat better, and with preparing to deal with the inevitable capsize which is looming in my future...

Last edited by Chuck (10 Sep 2021 6:44 pm)

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#888 10 Sep 2021 7:13 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 328

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I'd approached Todd a couple of years back about crafting a set of sails for me, rather than go with the stock set offered by CLC. He replied he'd pretty much gotten out 'of the business' for a number of reasons.

My recourse then (as none of the other sailmakers I'd contacted ever replied) was to query Dillon if by chance I might get a 'deal' on a set from them with none of the other sailing kit components included. As my intent was to craft those by myself I had no need of factory parts & paying for something I didn't need was a hurdle.

My goals are similar Chuck, centered around boat handling now that I have the capsize / recovery initiation behind me. And I'll be doing some fiddling with the rigging with the purpose being to get things better 'tuned' for this rig before I venture out again with the mizzen set.

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#889 12 Sep 2021 6:59 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 86

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Fellow Waterlusters-

I've been taking a look at the manual with the (sparse) page on how to mount the Mirage Drive into its mounting location.

The manual shows two shelves used to hold the click-n-go brackets, but shows no dimensions for the shelves.  Do you guys with installed Mirage Drives happen to have any building notes on the size of the shelves used to hold the drive brackets?

Many thanks,

   -Chuck

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#890 12 Sep 2021 7:12 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 328

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Yeah... got lots of notes on those. They'd been left out of my kit, I had to scramble to find relevant info. Dillon was Very Helpful, here's what he sent me:

"The shelves should be 6" long, 2-1/2" wide, 3/4" thick - either cut from solid timber, laminated plywood, or Starboard / G10 / some other high-density, relatively stiff plastic."

My first pair failed (laminated from 6mm okoume) during fitting so I made a set out of 1" Delrin plastic that appear to me vastly more robust. Also devised a method of sealing the mounting bolts - which I'd 'upsized' - so the shelves can be removed when necessary w/o having to resort to scraping off silicone caulk.

Here's a JPG layout I did in Adobe Illustrator to firm up in my mind the shelves position when installed:

Drive_Shelves.jpg

6-3/16" is the distance the first shelf mounting bolt's center is positioned back of the rear face of the 2nd bulkhead / front of drive well. 4" is the center-to-center distance between the two bolts. 5-9/16" is the distance from the top of the shelves to the top of the drive trunk's sides. I'll have to measure my placement to make sure the height didn't change when I went to 1" thick material.

As it is now I noted some very minor wear on the bottom where the fins protrude when I had my boat up off trailer after first launch. I may have to mill a fraction off my shelves if the drive's rubbing somehow on the fin slot's edge along the bottom. Have to see if wear's worse now that I've used it more.

Last edited by spclark (12 Sep 2021 7:44 pm)

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#891 12 Sep 2021 9:46 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 86

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks, SP!  This gives me a good place to start.

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#892 12 Sep 2021 11:01 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 328

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Glad I could help!

Keep in mind my 1" shelves were thicker than the 3/4" that CLC provides, that Dillon suggested in that e-mail I quoted. If you're measuring from the design's centerline for the shelf mounting bolts there'll be an extra 1/8" of shelf material above where the CLC shelves would otherwise put your drive mounts.

I recall it was a tricky fit-up getting my drive at the proper height once into its mounts. Those 3/4" square bits at front and back of the well, onto which the projections the drive body has in front and back must rest upon for the drive not to rock back and forth.

At the same time those mounts have to be positioned just far enough apart so the drive fits between them with little slack or slop or the drive can shift sideways. Jeff sent me a couple pictures as a guide, gave me confidence when I set about laying out the holes into which I'd be securing the drive mount bolts.

Jeff-s_Mounts_01.jpg

Jeff-s_Mounts_02.jpg

I removed the plastic covers from mine before installing them too. Used the smaller holes along the straight side for mounting as I felt that those along the curved side may not have been solid enough being so far from the drive well opening. Can always go back and add extra fasteners if the first set aren't quite right.

(My file storage space bar's turned yellow, says I'm approaching 50% allowed....)

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#893 19 Sep 2021 6:40 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 86

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi all-

Cruising around on the interwebs today during a very rainy afternoon, I came across 'self-bailers', something which I have not heard of before.  Do any of you have experience with these, and do you think they might be appropriate for the Waterlust?

After looking at them more, they seem a bit dicey and not appropriate for bailing after a capsize...

Last edited by Chuck (19 Sep 2021 6:47 pm)

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#894 19 Sep 2021 7:36 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 328

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Those work on the suction principal, require some forward movement of the hull they’re fitted into that then draws water out through ‘em. If you’re not moving, if they're not closed they'll allow water in that’s best kept out.

That scow I built some 50 years ago would take water over the leeward side during spirited reaches. I fitted two ‘Anderson’ bailers', one on each side of the center frame (no external keel or skeg on it) that could be opened depending on the tack. They worked fine, exactly as planned, if I could maintain sufficient hull speed to effect any ‘self-bailing’ action. (I thought I'd saved those two items when I dismantled that scow... looking at what they're getting for them now I surely wish I'd kept track of where I hid 'em!)

On my Waterlust, at the suggestion of Jeff in Texas, I built a small self-contained (pump, electronic switch, AGM type battery) as an installed safety fixture. Rated at 8+ GPM, in that slow-motion capsize I did two weeks ago it ran for eight or nine minutes then shut off. I think I posted a link to where the description of how to build such a device (with solar charging capability;I left that out on mine) can be downloaded in an earlier post here.

Just dawned on me that water I'd taken aboard weighed maybe 600 lbs? 8 lbs / gallon x 70 - 80 gallons = 560 - 640 lbs. For much of that time I was hanging off the port side so it's obvious the sealed floatation chambers at bow & stern are most useful!

(Jeff has his rigged with a hose over the side deck for discharge; I tried something similar but found it tipped my housing up on end, leaving the sensor high & dry so I've installed a bronze through-hull discharge fitting through the port topmost panel.)

Once a goodly portion of the water'd been pumped out I was able to re-board. My weight amidships put trim more level leaving maybe 2” of water in the cockpit at the #3 frame. The little battery-powered ‘siphon’ pump I’d bought to fill those drive-well compartments (had I done so before leaving the dock, I wonder if it would have made any difference?) served me well to remove that few remaining gallons… about two or three I estimate.

Last edited by spclark (19 Sep 2021 9:27 pm)

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#895 20 Sep 2021 6:05 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 246

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I endorse everything SP says. Unlike a racing dinghy (where self-bailers are really useful), it will be difficult to get enough speed up quickly enough on a Waterlust to allow them to work, and I find a battery pump is the best solution.
By the way SP, what 'siphon' pump do you use for the drive well compartments? I have a hand pump, but it is rather cumbersome.

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#896 20 Sep 2021 9:46 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 328

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Martin I work part-time in a hardware store, in a rural part of Wisconsin. I found a battery-powered pump for about $20 on or shelves that’s for fluid transfer. It’s not super fast but does free up both hands after being positioned with a little care:

BB2FB516-C484-4764-9F50-35FB83869BF1.jpg

Designed for gasoline, diesel & similar, also water of course. No idea what’d be available in the UK or if i could ship one to you (do you have ‘D cell’ alkaline-type batteries there?) for anything like a ‘reasonable’ import duty.

Last edited by spclark (20 Sep 2021 12:32 pm)

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#897 20 Sep 2021 6:28 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 246

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Many thanks SP. I have now found a similar one here in the UK.
At 5.5 litres per minute it would be fine for filling/emptying the ballast chambers whilst I get on with other jobs.

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#898 21 Sep 2021 4:47 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 246

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Rigging:- I noticed on Guy's videos that he has the mainsheet blocks on the boom (rather than one on the foredeck), and I have copied this as it is a great improvement if you are using the Hobiedrive, as I found that with the mainsheet block on the foredeck the sheet fouled the drive pedals. Thanks Guy!

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#899 2 Oct 2021 11:45 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 86

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi all,

I went for a very nice sail today of about ten miles.  Here is my track:

IMG_8865.png

Winds were about 5-8 knots from the south.

I find it somewhat disappointing that it looks like the Waterlust only achieves tacking angles of about 130 degrees going upwind.  Is this consistent with your experience?

The wind wasn't too strong and we (two in the boat today) took the opportunity to practice reefing on the water.  I don't have lazy jacks yet, but it wasn't impossible to put in a reef after first tightening the mizzen and heaving to.  The hardest part was attaching the outhaul to the new clew and tying the clew to the boom, but that would probably be easier with lazy jacks and if we had lowered the halliard enough to put the boom on the deck.  I think things would be different with more wind, though: holding onto the sail while adjusting it caused it to catch the wind and the boat quickly yawed and was no longer pointing upwind, which would have been much harder to manage in more breeze.

Also, I have been thinking more about adding a jib (too many days with too little wind!), and have a rough sail plan below (with and without bowsprit):

IMG_8866.jpg

In order to experiment to see how things work out with the combined center of effort about 1.5 feet behind the leading edge of the daggerboard, I am going to make a trial sail out of a tarp to see how the enlarged rig would handle.

Last edited by Chuck (2 Oct 2021 11:57 pm)

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#900 3 Oct 2021 7:20 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 285

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

That looks like a good sail!  I agree that particularly in light winds I don’t find she points that high - this may be as much related to the reasonably simple shape of our foils as the lug rig. Both Storer and Welsford suggest spending quite some effort in making genuinely aerofoil shaped foils.  I think pointing improves a bit as the wind increases.

I do like that rig of yours! I have often lusted after boats rigged like that - Vivier’s Ebihen 16 is a particular favourite, as is the Silmaril from Arwen Marine. I am not sure I feel I need more canvas on Svale though! Do let us know how you get on!

Good luck,

Guy

Last edited by Bergen_Guy (3 Oct 2021 9:42 am)

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