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#576 28 Nov 2020 7:24 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 176

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I must put the record straight. I wish I had these metalworking skills (and tools!), but I don't. A friend did this for me.
This is about as heavy as you would want off the water. I'll certainly let you know the results on the water.

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#577 28 Nov 2020 3:20 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 203

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Dunno whether this has been mentioned here earlier (this is one long thread!) so I'll add this now; http://www.ocsg.org.uk/
- something I've just come across by way of a post on another boat-centric forum at http://forum.woodenboat.com/.

Topic in that thread's focused on means & materials appropriate for crossbeams \ akas on sailing canoes, I'm certain may be of interest to those reading this too.

(Latest from Dillon, received yesterday indicates both full kit ama/aka package as well as just plans alone for the DIY'ers are in the offing once both himself and John H. are satisfied.)

Last edited by spclark (28 Nov 2020 3:26 pm)

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#578 28 Nov 2020 9:20 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 12

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Martin et al,

I wonder if you have any photos of the Mirage drive fitted out in the Waterlust?  I have not yet found any photos online of this that show how the drive comes out of the trunk, and how all the fittings/shelves/spacers actually work in the drive trunk.  I am not yet sure if I will mount the Mirage drive, and will certainly be paddling/sailing first before deciding whether to install the drive.

On that topic, I do not yet have any paddles.  Would those who have tried it recommend single or double paddles?  The beam seems perhaps wide for single paddles, but I don't have a lot of experience there.  I'm not an especially tall person, and anticipate paddling from the CLC cane seat mounted on cross bars that can move fore and aft on top of the Waterlust's longitudinals.

Last edited by Chuck (28 Nov 2020 9:25 pm)

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#579 28 Nov 2020 9:46 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 203

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Well I (for one) expect to use the Mirage drive I bought pretty much from Day 01 of my on-water experience with this craft. Dillon's inclusion pretty much was the inspiration that kicked me into action that morning back some four years ago once I read that kit's had been added to their offerings.

I had some fiddling to do fitting my drive to my hull 'cause somehow the drive shelves I expected with my kit were lacking. My first attempt at making a pair out of some laminated bits of 6mm 1088 plywood failed. So I stepped back, ordered up a block of Delrin of a suitable size and started over.

That worked.

But it was too late ihis year when I finished my hull work to bother getting everything ready for a maiden voyage so it's gonna have to wait 'till spring '21 for that.

Jeff Perkins here in Texas kindly 'mentored' me over some of the uncertainties I had with getting to this point. He's also very kindly provided his entire photo record of work he'd done getting his Waterlust launched, and given me permission to share his images here for our benefit.

Here are some from that collection, hopefully giving you an idea of what to expect:

DrivE_MountS.jpg

MounteD_DriveE.jpg

Drive-S_FinS.jpg

CompletE_InstalleD_DriveE_20201128-2217.jpeg

User-S_VieW.jpg

Last edited by spclark (28 Nov 2020 10:20 pm)

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#580 28 Nov 2020 10:27 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 203

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I'm with you too on your thinking about putting the CLC cane seat higher than it sits when on the floor. I "tried that on" once I had my hull ready to accept the deck, found the proposition rather awkward regarding how where my legs were relative to my back and the drive trunk itself.

One thing you might consider is adding a stiffener to those longitudinal frames. I chose to do that after realizing a bit of creative router work'd put some nice toe-holds in those frames. Somewhere back in this epic thread I put an image, but to save you searching here it is again:

Cockpit_Toe-holds.jpg

The idea being that the holes ought to serve nicely when hiked out to windward, and the added stiffeners on either side of each frame make a more robust mount for the seat. Until I can get out on the water I have no idea whether raising the seat will put the CG too high for stability if there's no additional 'ballast' aboard? We've been covering that aspect in earlier posts to bother with it here.

Carry on!

Last edited by spclark (28 Nov 2020 10:30 pm)

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#581 29 Nov 2020 9:23 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 176

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi Chuck.

I can't add anything to the superb photos SP has uploaded. But if you want anything in particular I can zoom in on it for you and take a few more photos.

Like SP it was the Hobie Drive which first attracted me to the Waterlust, so this is my primary means of propulsion - and it works a treat. As I hope to be paddle sailing two up most of the time, I have gone for a couple of wooden paddles as a backup. I haven't tried it but I have a feeling the boat floats too high in the water for a single paddle to work effectively. I think this and the seat arrangement are things you should leave to last and if you can find a small pool or pond to launch into you can work it out by trial and error. It is a very personal choice depending not only on your size, shape, age & fitness, but also the type of sailing/paddling you are planning. Personally, I am  planning paddle to windward and sail when off the wind, as there is very little room for tacking a 17ft boat on the rivers of the Norfolk Broads, so hiking out isn't an issue. Also I don't like getting my bottom wet!

I found the CLC cane seat just didn't work for me - it wasn't comfortable enough for any duration. The pedaling position in the Waterlust is surprisingly 'laid back' so you do need adequate bottom padding and back support (or is that just my age!).

Not for everyone I know, but I have settled for the Sevylor inflatable kayak seat which is attached by Velcro to the floor and has adjustable side straps. This is comfortable, light and easy to adjust and suits my purpose. (The thing behind it is my helmsman's seat).

gaia-seats-1.jpeg

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#582 30 Nov 2020 12:52 am

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 12

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

SP, Martin: Those photos are great!  Very helpful. 

I have never seen a Mirage drive other than online, so the photo of it in the trunk is very useful in understanding how things fit together.  Now that I see the drive has quick connects that attach it to metal brackets that screw onto the wooden shelves.  I wonder why those wooden shelves are held on end to the bulkheads separating the drive trunk from the 'inspection compartments'?  One would think that a thick block mounted to the floor would work much better; perhaps there is a part under there that is not visible.

SP, I saw your photo with the longitudinal reinforcements awhile back, and plan on doing the same.  I think I will probably borrow some paddles on the first few times out to see what fits before investing in something more long term.  I was also thinking that some more ballast would be useful sitting with a high CG, but guess I will have to experiment to see what makes the most sense.  And like you, I thought that the whole Mirage drive paddling position looked a bit awkward with the 'board trunk between ones legs (especially short legs like mine); this was what was making me think about raising the seat up higher.

Hugh Horton has quite a take on an adjustable paddler's seat at: https://www.bootsbaugarage.ch/hugh/h_essay9_en.htm . I like his web site and the information he has on small home-built sailing canoes.  Also, I like Mike Storer's pages on the Oz Goose ,where I found a lot of useful information on rigging and sailing a small lug-rigged boat.

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#583 30 Nov 2020 1:30 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 203

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

“Seats are the most difficult things to design.”

Yeah, I can relate to that perspective. Tried my hand making various butt-rests over many years, always striving to do better than the last’n.

Thanks for the link too; I think Storer’s web missive’s what gave me the idea to explore amas as an add-on to Dillon’s Waterlust endeavor.

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#584 8 Dec 2020 12:36 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 203

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

So while working to make my basement shop less of an irritation to my spouse (my planer, with the dust collector attached and both running, makes a heckofaracket!) I've been contemplating what Guy and Martin have been posting about their experiences afloat - both in and out of their Waterlusts - and how I might best approach getting those same experiences safely behind me once I can get mine launched.

Here's a link to a thread I started on the CLC forum recently about what a friend (who taught me how to sail 50+ years ago) suggested would be worth looking into: dry suits! I expanded the scope to include wet suits too as I understand they're more appropriate for warmer conditions.

Hope this might be of some value to those reading this far into this thread.

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#585 9 Dec 2020 11:00 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 176

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks SP.

Having sailed in a wetsuit, I can't recommend it in these parts for anything other than (short) racing activity. My wetsuit racing days were over 40 years ago!

I am hoping to convert 'Gaia' into a cruising vessel (when I/we will be out for the day or even several days rather than a couple of hours of a race) which will only capsize in exceptional circumstances, as to do so will signal the end of the day's sailing, (possibly a marriage!) and a lot of tedious drying out.

To this end my 8mm steel daggerboard and reduced mainsail rig are now complete. I have been in touch again with Dillon regarding the Aka/Amas, as I intend to add these to my other design mods to achieve my  aims. As you have reported, the design work is now complete and they should be available  shortly either as a kit or as plans (subject to prices I will go for the kit!).

PS Now I have the boat lifted into winter storage in the roof of the garage I can see that the skeg is taking a lot of punishment. Not surprising really as it is very vulnerable. I have ordered a short length of brass keel band as protection for next season.

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#586 22 Dec 2020 8:05 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 12

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Fellow Waterlust builders:

I have started up work on the boat again with the coming of a little holiday free time.

And, I have decided to do some work getting the rudder fittings in place before the deck goes on.

Do any of you have photos showing how the rudder and fittings are arranged with respect to the stern of the boat?  A side view would illustrate a lot, especially since there doesn't seem to be much guidance in the plans for how far up/down the rudder assembly best goes with respect to the stern, and where best to attach the gudgeons.

I have found some gudgeons at: https://duckworks.com/canoe-kayak-rudder-gudgeons/ , which look like they will be a good match for the stern (although they also look like they will require a bit more bending for the wider rudder assembly.)

Thanks,

   -Chuck

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#587 22 Dec 2020 9:02 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 12

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Also, SP -

What sort of white paint did you find to be suitable for the inside of the boat?  Sounds like something oil based is probably right, but all I can easily find is Rustoleum (and I don't want to shell out for the expensive topsides paint).

   -Chuck

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#588 23 Dec 2020 12:36 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 203

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

In answer to your questions Chuck here're some image files..

The first is one from Jeff Perkins' extensive collection of images, showing how he arrived at the points where mounting holes for the gudgeons are to be located:

rudder_hardware_20201222-2354.jpeg

Now a shot showing his final installation:

Rudder_Controls.jpeg

I think he used the same Duckworks parts you've found, as I have. And yes they need to be re-shaped to fit the contours back there. Be careful you don't distort the ID of the bits that are to accept the pintles when you're doing your bending. I did and it takes some doing to get them back round....

Here's a pic of where I put mine, working from Jeff's drawing as best I could:

Rudder_Hdwr.jpeg

Note the position of the forward mounting bolt on the lower gudgeon here. There's no room in the cassette for a bolt head so I was gratified when Jeff confirmed my suspicion that one needs to source a couple of stainless steel T-nuts for that detail. I ended up locating mine at a not-so-local Ace Hardware store in the Hillman hardware selection they maintain. The TrueValue where I work part time has the same company's products but we don't stock that particular item.

Inside the stern, again following Jeff's lead, I added some reinforcement by means of tabs of 6mm okoume plywood upon which the hardware would bear once installed:

Rudder_Ftg_Reinforce.jpeg

And for that rear-most pair of fasteners for the lower pintle (I chose to use a European arrangement for mine that puts the long pintle pointing upwards at the bottom rather than both pintles facing down on the cassette) there's precious little room for projecting fasteners in there to say nothing of fingers trying to get washers and nuts started.

So I took a leap of faith and cast an aluminum powder-filled epoxy 'plug' in there that I then drilled & tapped to take 1/4-20 machine screw threads for the pan head machine screws I'll be using:

Al-reinforced_PLUG.jpg

As for paint... I bought a quart of Brightsides white for my forward storage locker, just to try the stuff out. I'm happy with how it turned out, it ought to be easy to find things in there it's so bright! Painting the cockpit white though I thought not a good idea. Too bright on the eyes in summer sunshine, so I went with a two-tone scheme (three if you count the white I used in the aft compartment behind the cockpit:

4B74A118-0CF9-46BC-8346-1237F793D802.jpeg

For my hull, parts of the cockpit and deck I went with traditional oil-base marine enamel from Kirby's.

Kind of pricey but I really fell in love with their color palette of traditional colors! They send you free a sample card with real paint samples so I suppose I could have used those for having something less expensive like the Rustoleum stuff custom-mixed. I would have saved some $$ for the shipping if not the paint itself.

Todd Bradshaw (who literally wrote the book on sailing canoes) is an advocate of Rustoleum oil paints for canoes BTW, which I was unaware of when I ordered mine last spring. Given his years of experience I'm certain they'll work just fine.

Hope this helps...

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all as well!

Last edited by spclark (23 Dec 2020 12:42 am)

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#589 24 Dec 2020 7:58 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 176

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi Chuck.
I really like SP's solution to the rudder issue which is very neat and as with the rest of his build a very professional job -  beyond my ability I am afraid!
I found an easier (but rather more 'clunky' solution) was to epoxy a stern post in position and then you can screw the gudgeons into it from the outside at whatever position you choose. My rudder ended up a little lower than the one in the photo.
Happy Christmas one and all!
(Looking forward to the aka/amas build in the New year - has anyone had any update on progress on this?)

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#590 24 Dec 2020 12:27 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 203

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

Happy Christmas one and all!
(Looking forward to the aka/amas build in the New year - has anyone had any update on progress on this?)

MartinC thanks so much for the compliments on my build. Had I thought about your sternpost addition before I was so far into getting my hull done I very likely would have done the same thing. I may in fact suggest this to Dillon M. as an ‘option’ for the skeg’s design.

Last I heard from him he’s well along on the ‘training wheel’ project. Kit as well as plans-only is his solution, but what shapes that all includes is yet known only to himself so far! Maybe after the holidays we’ll learn more!

Mike Waters has his pretty much ready also but his time presently is keeping him occupied with projects for others. I’m waiting on reports from Dillon before I decide whether to proceed with either’s concept. I’ve not yet asked Mike to provide more details other than the sketch I’ve received along with his suggestion that suitable amas follow a downsized version of those he’s designed for his W-17 trimaran.

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#591 24 Dec 2020 8:59 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 224

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Merry Christmas all! 

I went with a sternpost also -  and lots of thickened epoxy to get it in place. I should have done it before putting the deck on - it would have been a neater job, but so far what I have done seems to do the job, and it's clear that some sort of re-enforcement is required here.  Thanks SP for putting the photos up again. I used those images as a guide to where my fittings are. I think the most important thing is to get them as far apart as possible.   

I too will be very interested to see the new training wheels!  But I have also been looking around at the sail area of other sailing canoes out there, and I have to say that the waterlust has a huge rig when compared with either the Klepper S2 rig at 55 sq foot and the 'big' solway dory rig at 44 sq ft. The waterlust rig is 80 sq ft.  I also remember seeing reference from one of the sailing canoes from the 'golden age' in the late 1800's that had two rigs, a racing and a cruising rig. If I can find the reference I will share it. So, I am very interseted in looking at a smaller rig with significantly lighter shorter spars like Martin has done. I can see that may make a lot of sense when one is in the mood for a more contemplative sail.

Seasons greetings, happy fettling for those who are - good luck with the next steps Chuck! Here's to a better 2021.

Guy

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#592 25 Dec 2020 4:41 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 224

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I was just doing some googling in a quiet moment and see that the rig on a waterlust is larger than than that of a full sized lazer rig! (76 sq feet for a lazer) and the lazer doesn't have the yards needed for the lug, so considerably less weight up high, and has a beam of 4'7''... no wonder the waterlust is a bit fun when the wind picks up. The Mirror dinghy has a sail area of 69 square feet. Again beamier but shorter, and an Optimist 35 square feet, the same as the solway dory expedition rig.   Martin, do you know the sail area of your 'cruising rig'?  I would imagine we could get sufficient drive from something between a Mirror rig and an optimist rig.

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#593 25 Dec 2020 9:11 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 12

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Many thanks for those photos, SP -- they clearly show how to think about things.

I was thinking of using #10 3/4" SS wood screws into some blocks epoxied into the stern area to mount the gudgeons into the hull.  Machine screws would be stronger, of course, but wood screws would not need a through-hole in the hull, and I would think they should be strong enough (rated to ~500# each in plywood).

My impression of the Waterlust rig is that it may be a lot of sail, but that with two reefs I hope it can be shortened easily. On the inland lakes I will be mostly sailing on there can be a whole lot of low winds, and I think I will appreciate the big sail area.  Also, with the lug rig the sail is lower down, which theoretically means less heeling than from a tall rig.

Of course, you guys who have taken it out already have a much better sense of that!  Do you think the sail can be rigged to reef quickly and easily from the cockpit?  Maybe a downhaul to help bring the sail down would be useful (I have seen diagrams that have a line like this in some of the old sailing canoe literature from the late 19th century)

Also for you who have taken it out: what do you think of the recommended running rigging?  Are the pulley systems (3:1 for the main downhaul and 2:1 for the mainsheet, etc) appropriately sized?  I have been looking through sailing sites at rigging here while it is too cold to work in the garage...


   -Wayne

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#594 26 Dec 2020 1:58 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 176

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi Wayne,

On a big open lake with little wind you may be OK with the big sail, but remember, the only reason you are reefing is because the wind is getting up. I know you are supposed to reef before this...but nobody does!

When you reef, your first move is to turn into the wind causing the boom to thrash about. Your next action is  to release  the main halyard which drops the thrashing boom to head level! Then with one hand holding the tiller, another hanging onto the boom to operate the reefing lines, another catching the flapping sail (all the while balancing the boat to stop it tipping over), my feeling is that it will be virtually impossible to reef whilst underway without capsizing.

I suspect the only way to do this is to have lazyjacks, so that reefing is two stage process ie When the wind rises you drop the boom and sail into the lazyjacks (above head level). You then paddle to a sheltered (or preferably dry) spot and carry out the reefing process.

For this reason I chose not to have any reefing points on my new reduced mainsail, as  reefing lines when not in use really get in  the way on a lug rigged boat and cause infinite tangles when rigging an de-rigging for transport. I have a topping lift on each sail to dump wind quickly if necessary.

With regard to the running rigging pully systems, with my reduced rig  I have dispensed with all of them! I simply have fairleads and holes in the masts. I may find this is a bit too minimalist, but it is a good place to start, as I found I had grossly over-rigged the boat the first time out causing complexity and tangles, and  on a small boat like this simplicity is key.

I am longing to try out my new ideas (which may well not be right!) and will let you know how I get on as soon as I am brave enough to have a 'frostbite' cruise.

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#595 1 Jan 2021 1:11 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 203

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Reading these reports with interest! Good comment Martin re: “over-rigging”. My build’s in winter stasis so it’s planning time for me in this regard. Longer days to us all up topside now that the calendar’s turned a new first page, Happy New Year!

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#596 3 Jan 2021 3:22 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 176

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Happy New Year to you too SP and to all Waterlusters and the nice people at CLC and FBK!
Lets hope for some good sailing in 2021.

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#597 6 Jan 2021 1:31 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 224

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Happy new year all from Bergen too!

That is a very interesting point you make Martin about 'over rigging'. I have always managed to get some reefing line tangled into something while putting the rig up, and losing ten minutes rigging is always a bit frustrating. This may be due to me always being in a bit of a hurry to get home after a sailing trip, but I suspect also has a lot to do with the number of lines I have all around the place with the two sets of reefing lines in.  I do think that simplicity has to be a big plus with these small boats. Everything that we can do to 'take away' unnecessary elements has to be a good thing, that will result in more (and more enjoyable) time on the water.

I have not yet reefed underway, but I have had the rig down a few times while away from land. I don't have lazyjacks fitted, and basically most of the sail ended up in the water. If I remember correctly boat was quite stable like this, especially with the mizzen left up,  but I would support Martin's view that a reef is best put in ashore. 

I am currently investigating sourcing bamboo for spars - there is a dealer in Denmark who appears to import Bamboo - so I am going to try and get hold of some and see if that works for lighter spars. I am also contemplating cutting the mast in half along its length and hollowing it out to see if I can get some weight out of the rig. I am loathed to go down the carbon road for a mast although I am sure it would result the lightest rig. 

here's to some good sailing - it's minus 8 degrees C or something here and the local body of water is now frozen - I won't be attaching skis to Svale...

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#598 7 Jan 2021 6:13 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 12

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Sounds good, Guy -- My looking around the internet suggests that wall thicknesses of 20% of the spar diameter is a good spot to be at.  I am still deciding about hollowing out the mainmast before I glue the scarf joints...

  -Chuck

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