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#526 15 Oct 2020 1:33 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 183

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

S'easy to 'link' but as this forum's not set up to parse text phrases for HTML you have to learn a bit of coding, made simple if you click on the button below TagOn.jpg

That'll show you what to add to your quick reply text that then gets expressed as an active 'link' both in a Preview you can review before hitting Submit.

Before too long you'll be doing your own website...maybe!

And thanks again for pointing me to that URL you added. Even w/o links, simply copy / paste works 99.99% of the time, eh?

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#527 15 Oct 2020 2:00 pm

jace
Member
Registered: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 7

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

spclark wrote:

S'easy to 'link' but as this forum's not set up to parse text phrases for HTML you have to learn a bit of coding, made simple if you click on the button below https://forum.fyneboatkits.co.uk/img/me … /TagOn.jpg

Ah, thank you SP. Post edited. The error messaging lead me to assume I was being restricted from posting URLs until I had achieved a certain post count, not that I was failing to use the appropriate syntax.

Ironically, I spent a decade of my career building internet software – which has mostly left me cranky, impatient, and distrustful of computers big_smile

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#528 15 Oct 2020 2:13 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 183

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

jace wrote:

Ironically, I spent a decade of my career building internet software – which has mostly left me cranky, impatient, and distrustful of computers big_smile

HA!

A PowerUser, in other words!

I had a good run too for about fifteen years using 'em to create & print large-format graphics for a design company in Chicago.

'Puters're useful tools much of the time, but as with any tool they can be misused by their operators, often causing problems for the rest of us.

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#529 15 Oct 2020 2:43 pm

jace
Member
Registered: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 7

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

SP, you can almost always trust the "experts" to have the biggest blindspots smile - always reminding myself to cultivate that beginner's mind.

Also, I haven't yet read every post in the thread, so at the risk of redundancy here's a link to Michael Storer's extensive writings on rigging, tuning, and sailing lug rigs: https://www.storerboatplans.com/categor … rig-setup/

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#530 15 Oct 2020 8:25 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 215

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

am I right in thinking that the optimum position for both the ballast and the buoyancy would be in the two end compartments - the ballast for the 'dumbell' effect and the buoyancy to match the Swallow configuration?

Martin, I think that depends a bit on what sort of ‘feel’ you want from the boat. That will most likely give you the most pitch stable setup, I guess that will be the most ‘steady’ feeling way of balasting. If you want here to feel a bit more lively in waves and maybe turn a bit quicker, then having the ballast more centrally placed might be the way to go.

I have been mulling over getting a steel plate cut that fits into the cockpit sole. It could be held in place by a few wooden toggles. Nice and low, shouldn't point load the hull too much. The only thing I prefer about water ballast is the ease of removing it for transport, which I mostly do by hand, and the neutral buoyancy if you do end up with a lot of water in the boat.

Thanks for those links jace, I don’t think it’s repetition here!

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#531 16 Oct 2020 8:41 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 215

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

The other place for ballast that I have not yet really looked into is the tanks either side of the mirage drive box. I don’t use those for anything at the moment. They are actually sealed (I hope) but I could even make a ‘proper’ plumbed in water ballast system in those tanks.

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#532 16 Oct 2020 12:44 pm

jace
Member
Registered: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 7

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Martin,

Everything I've been taught in racing and sailing big boats emphasizes keeping weight as low and close to the middle as possible. Ballast at the ends in theory provides damping force, but in practice leads to increased inertia in waves (and much bigger stresses on the hull.)

On the other hand, in un-ballasted boats and rowing craft, being able to shift weight fore and aft to achieve a desired trim can be very useful (even if that just means adjusting your position.)

Bergen_Guy wrote:

The other place for ballast that I have not yet really looked into is the tanks either side of the mirage drive box.

Guy, this was exactly where I was thinking it would be best & easiest to add weight, and at the very least where I'd want stow heavier gear like a folding anchor.

I'd be inclined to try sand or steel shot ballast bags depending on the space available, maybe a 25lb bag on each side of the trunk to start: https://www.sandbagstore.com/heavy-duty … j8QAvD_BwE

Last edited by jace (16 Oct 2020 12:55 pm)

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#533 17 Oct 2020 7:51 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 161

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks Jace and Guy.
I really like the idea of using the tanks either side of the mirage drive box as ballast tanks as they could be 'plumbed' into the drive box with a simple  plug which could be easily removed to drain the tanks before lifting the boat out. Do you think they are big enough to make a difference?
(PS I am not quite sure why, but mine allowed a small amount of water in when I capsized - just enough to soak my phone, wallet and car keys! - so they are not particularly useful as a dry store).

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#534 17 Oct 2020 1:07 pm

jace
Member
Registered: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 7

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

(PS I am not quite sure why, but mine allowed a small amount of water in when I capsized - just enough to soak my phone, wallet and car keys! - so they are not particularly useful as a dry store).

Martin,

definitely check your inspection ports & seals! New ones shouldn't be letting in any water at all.

Eyeballing from the study plans each trunk tank looks to be maybe .5-.75 cubic feet? So ~30-45lbs of sea water per side seems possible – enough to make a noticeable difference I'd think.

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#535 19 Oct 2020 2:24 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 215

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Jace, thanks for those numbers. I sailed on Sunday with 34 kg of water ballast on board. Further aft than the last test, and I think she did feel less nose heavy. I am going to work a bit more on this idea of using the side tanks as water ballast tanks. To start with I will just put in a hole for a hatch cover (which I have not done yet) and get myself one of those small portable canoe bilge pumps and a few bits of pipe, so I can pump water in and out.

Of my two tank covers one is good and the other leaks. I think it’s because the surface it is fitted to is slightly curved, this results in the plastic bending slightly so that the seal is not quite made. I believe SP spotted this before it became an issue and made some perfectly flat pads to fit his tank covers to.

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#536 19 Oct 2020 11:20 pm

jace
Member
Registered: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 7

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Guy, some sikaflex or deck bedding compound should be able to seal up any gaps between the bottom of the plate and the curved deck.

How much more stable did your boat feel with the 34kg?

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#537 20 Oct 2020 4:04 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 183

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Bergen_Guy wrote:

Of my two tank covers one is good and the other leaks. I think it’s because the surface it is fitted to is slightly curved, this results in the plastic bending slightly so that the seal is not quite made. I believe SP spotted this before it became an issue and made some perfectly flat pads to fit his tank covers to.

Right... but the ports I built pads for are the two compartments at either end, not the two beside the drive trunk:

Hatch_1.jpg

The rear deck needed at most about 2mm of fill-in on each side. Front's curved not much more, maybe 2.5 - 3mm. Sikaflex ought to work, or 3M 5200. Just don't run the fasteners down tightish when you're bedding your port flanges and have the covers installed too. They'll help keep things flat.

Note too I went with port covers that lock by a cam-lock arrangement rather than screw-in.

Somehow I don't think adding ballast at the extreme ends will help much. Jace's comments about 'low and centered' hits home, at least for ballast that's more or less fixed in place.

A few years ago I snagged six rectangular metal weights covered in plastic, I think cast off from someone's exercise equipment. They've come in handy several times since I brought 'em home from the recycler's bin (not exactly kosher but they're being 'recycled' in a good way, right?). Once I get my build launched I may try those for 'temporary' ballast when I'm out on my own.

Or sandbags... but once those get wet they're really difficult to handle when it comes time to get them out!

We're looking at first snow of the season tomorrow. I'll be working in my garage, on my hull's final paint coat. Then it's some decent dry time before hoisting it up into the space above where I'll be garaging my Clubman for the winter months. There's plenty of space ahead of my parking spot for the trailer BUT I'll have to pull the front tongue half off then stand the trailer on end, against the wall. Carry on with the smaller stuff - spars, rudder trunk, etc., - in the basement.

And if Dillon and Mike get farther on with their thoughts about amas & akas I'll be looking to decide whose solution best fits my thinking for adding stability. Mike's initial sketch shows akas that can pivot, bringing the amas against the hull for transport on a typical trailer. Be a BIG plus in my opinion!

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#538 20 Oct 2020 4:14 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 183

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Bergen_Guy wrote:

The other place for ballast that I have not yet really looked into is the tanks either side of the mirage drive box. I don’t use those for anything at the moment. They are actually sealed (I hope) but I could even make a ‘proper’ plumbed in water ballast system in those tanks.

You're working from a kit produced by Fyne Boats, yes?

The drive console cap provided with my CLC kit had circles milled into one face indicating where a builder can cut openings for those access ports as used at the bow compartment in the original design.

I added a second for the aft bin too, both so I could easily get the rudder hardware mounted as well as for maintenance and inspections.

(I wouldn't think it'd be economical to ship kits across the pond, why I asked about where your kits were produced. I recall a comment about your daggerboards being solid wood, maybe laminated edge-to-edge from rectangular stock?)

Mike Waters has an interesting idea about a breakaway end for daggerboards than don't pivot:

https://smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-Art … oards.html

The idea being should a 'board encounter an underwater object, the end could come away w/o being lost entirely, perhaps avoiding more major damage to the daggerboard trunk & hull. I may explore making up a second 'board over the winter to incorporate something along this line of thought.

Last edited by spclark (20 Oct 2020 4:16 am)

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#539 20 Oct 2020 4:22 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 161

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Just for the record, each locker either side of the Hobie casing holds 18 Litres of water. (Spot on Jace!).
I think this is definitely the place for the water ballast with a drain hole through the Hobie casing. (Another job for the winter).
I have found the source of my leaks - Like Guy, it was  around the covers.  Sikaflex required I think.
I am following your buoyancy/ballast tests avidly Guy - so keep it up! I particularly want to avoid buoyancy bags in the cockpit so I am keen to know if these contribute much.

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#540 22 Oct 2020 11:04 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 161

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Following my capsize experience, I learnt that despite the water in the boat not being much more than 4-6" deep, this did require a considerable amount of bailing (when I had towed the boat to a pontoon). I am therefore considering installing an automatic electric bilge pump - this type of thing:-
https://www.marinesuperstore.com/marine … gKwm_D_BwE

I noticed that water collects in a useful bailing position between the port and starboard longitudinals and the hull and I would place the pump here, as far forward as possible to be in cable length range of the battery which I propose to put in the forward storage locker centrally and high up adjacent to the main mast aft step. My thinking is that the boat can be tipped to the side of the pump and this battery position should always be dry.The water can be pumped through a hose which goes through a skin fitting just below the gunwhale. This particular pump has a non-return valve.

Any thoughts anyone?

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#541 22 Oct 2020 12:20 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 215

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Martin, Thanks for checking those volumes! I think we might be on to something there. 

Sadly last sail I didn't manage more tests, but I will let you know how the next one goes. I quite agree that if we can keep the side space free, it makes the cockpit a much more useable space.  Over the summer while paddling the boat on a three day camping expedition, we used the side areas for storing lots of small things that we needed to get to during the day (fishing rods included!)

I think that an electric bilge pump could be quite a nice feature, it would mean that after a capsize you could concentrate on keeping the boat upright and making sure nothing has gone missing in the water while the pump does the rest. 

Keeping the battery and cables dry may be a challenge in the long term, but I think your suggested location for a battery is a good one. That locker has mostly stayed dry during my capsize tests so far.  If you can move your pump around, you could also use it for filling /emptying the water ballast tanks!

Last edited by Bergen_Guy (22 Oct 2020 12:21 pm)

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#542 22 Oct 2020 12:53 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 183

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Pump seems a reasonable solution to overcome having volumes of water remaining in those side compartments after a capsize. The designed-in limber holes (you both do have those, yes?) ought to allow any water to drain into the cockpit eventually I’d expect, but manually bailing water whether you’re inside the boat or worse, hanging off the side of a low-floating hull, isn’t something I look forward to whatsoever.

In my case those hiking toe-holds I routed into those longitudinals ought to help some, yet after a capsize water’s still going to be need to be moved as efficiently as possible.

That same pump’s available here it seems -

https://www.zoro.com/whale-marine-super … fyEALw_wcB

- yet the only source I’ve found so far has it at 24VDC while rated for 1100 gph which I’ll need to verify! That’s a big boost over the 12V model’s 650 gph / 40 lpm. I’ll have to inquire if that higher volume spec is indeed true or not.

Thanks again to you both for relating your experiences here. Be a few months before I get to where you are in all this.

Last edited by spclark (22 Oct 2020 1:16 pm)

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#543 22 Oct 2020 1:27 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 161

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks both. It is really helpful to bounce  ideas off others in case I am doing something really stupid!

SP:- I found this web site over here where it appears that there is an automatic  12 volt 1050 gals per hour version from this manufacurer. I think 'auto' is important as you don't want to be swimming around looking for a switch!

https://www.whalepumps.com/marine/produ … ilge-Pumps

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#544 22 Oct 2020 1:35 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 183

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

That outfit makes quite an assortment of nicely-sized electric pumps!

https://www.whalepumps.com/marine/produ … ilge-pumps

WEST Marine, a big name in chandlery here in the US shows these in their selections, all 12V -

Screen-Shot-2020-10-22-at-8_17_07-AM.jpeg

Some don't have switches integrated though so that's an important consideration.

Good job Martin, this all is useful info!

Last edited by spclark (22 Oct 2020 2:22 pm)

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#545 Yesterday 2:46 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 183

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Got our first measurable snow here yesterday, accompanied by temps in the high 20's (°F) so I felt it kind of appropriate I'd be putting the final paint to my Waterlust's hull according to the scheme I'd worked out last February:

Painted_Hull_Bow.jpeg

Daggerboard & rudder assembly will follow along in a similar vein. D'board's red-topped w/yellow under hull, rudder cassette's yellow w/red rudder for contrast.

Had a devil of a time deciding how to keep a fair line with the red / yellow transition, as it was a one-time proposition to get it right.

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#546 Yesterday 6:13 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 161

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Looking really nice SP. Well done! How did you do the red/yellow transition? Masking tape would have been tricky  at the junction of the boards. By the way what is she to be called?

It is nowhere near as cold here as where you and Guy are, but it is now pretty wet, windy and unpredictable so not sailing (or open air driving) weather. Both toys are tucked away for the winter with the help of the Harken lift and a couple of removable joists - for peace of mind! .
  Toys-tucked-away-for-the-winter.jpeg

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#547 Today 12:01 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 183

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

"How did you do the red/yellow transition? Masking tape would have been tricky  at the junction of the boards."

Aye, that's what gave me fits it did. And the difficulty of seeing a line against that bright yellow paint where the laps transition to flat.

First I simply tried placing blue painters' tape but that quickly proved frustrating. No amount of fussing with it every four or five inches proved worthwhile.

Then I tried some stuff called green Frog Tape here that's supposed to be really good for maintaining a clean painted line. I thought perhaps if I ran that beyond the laps a bit I could then come back with a sharp blade, using the flat surface of the sheer plank as a guide to trim the tape straight.

Didn't work. Too tough to cut straight over any kind of distance, and the edge I did manage to cut wasn't straight either.

So it took me a couple of days to come up with Plan C:

Used blue painters' tape to define the edge of the sheer strake lap edge, then at the flats I could fuss with this to get it looking as straight as I could. This put the blue tape on that panel. Then I took the green Frog tape and began placing it as close as I could to the edge defined by the blue tape at the lap edge, leaving maybe 1/32" between 'em free.

The idea being I was using the blue tape as a guide, rather than the panel edge. And having a well-defined guide let me adjust the green tape when I felt it was running off wide of the mark. Once I was happy with the green tape's placement I sacrificed the blue I'd used as a guide.

Took about an hour to do both sides, then I sanded the sheer strake prior to painting with a roller, tipping the red off with a foam brush a foot or so at a time. Followed with second coat three hours later, then pulled the tape after another four.

You have a skylight in your garage there? That's a nice attribute! And I like the 'removable' rafters too for its simplicity!

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