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#501 5 Oct 2020 6:58 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

That's a huge help SP, especially as I face very similar space limitations as you.
I think the ratchet strap 'safeties' are a wise precaution, especially our automotive pride and  joy parked underneath!
Thank you very much.

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#502 5 Oct 2020 9:07 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Sorry! One more question please. What height are you lifting to please? (Floor to cheek blocks).
If I have this right, this determines the distance apart of the cheek blocks.

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#503 5 Oct 2020 12:47 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

Sorry! One more question please. What height are you lifting to please? (Floor to cheek blocks).
If I have this right, this determines the distance apart of the cheek blocks.

From the floor to the bottom of that ridge beam measures about 114" / 289 cm.

The bottom of the garage door tracks are about 90" / 228 cm from the floor.

I worked out that one pair of lines would be 72" / 182 cm from the garage wall, the second pair 80" / 203 cm farther on.

You're correct in your thinking about the lift height but the block spacing really has more to do with the length of the hull you want to hoist. It ought to be balanced so both pairs of lines are loaded more or less evenly, otherwise one pair of blocks bears a disproportionate load.

Another, perhaps more important relationship, is between the two multi-part blocks that make up the lifting multiplier. There needs to be enough room between them when the hull is at the low point so that when it's lifted to the high point those blocks aren't quite touching. All that line making up the standing parts between their multiple sheaves needs to be accommodated.

I worked out a configuration that works for me, based on the height of the building platform I wanted to use and the boat trailer that would eventually take it's place. Unless the trailer's wheels are resting on two 8" thick timbers, my lift lines aren't long enough to pick it up and still bring it up to the maximum height needed to clear both my car and my head when I'm walking around.

Hope this helps!

Oh and those cheek blocks need to move in two dimensions. They don't just turn the lift lines towards the paired sheaves where they then turn towards the "come-along" blocks, but they also need to twist as the load is raised & lowered. That's where those pigtail lag screws come in handy that Harken supplies with their lift kits. I'm sure something similar could be achieved with an eye bolt and shackle-connected block, but it's an important detail to reduce or eliminate chafed lines: lines best have fair leads!

Last edited by spclark (5 Oct 2020 12:51 pm)

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#504 6 Oct 2020 8:23 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi SP. Many thanks. Your garage is remarkably similar to mine so I am hoping I can benefit from all your calculations and thought processes!
Just to make sure I have this right, could you please give me approiximate dimensions (inches are fine) for A,B,C and D in the following photo?
(Sorry Guy for hijacking this thread -  Latest from Dillon is that he is focussing on ease of mounting and de-mounting of the aca and the  balance between enough flotation to reduce the ease of capsize and too much to prevent righting if you do capsize).
SP-s-garage.jpeg

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#505 6 Oct 2020 11:27 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Sure...
A = 39”
B = 81”
C = 78”
D = 111 - 1/4”

And thanks for that update on what Dillon’s up to! I’ve been working with Mike Waters also, and Dillon’s on board with our collaboration. Ought to be at least one robust solution between the two of ‘em, maybe even two!

Last edited by spclark (6 Oct 2020 11:31 am)

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#506 6 Oct 2020 12:20 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks SP. That's great. You have saved me hours of time!

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#507 6 Oct 2020 1:09 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

Thanks SP. That's great. You have saved me hours of time!

I'm sure!

I know it took me hours to figure out how to arrange all that stuff, working around the roof pitch, that ridge beam, the lights I'd hung (two had to be moved), the hatch that covers the solar-powered garage ventilator fan up there, the reconfiguration of the blocks between the paired sheaves and the attachment point where the cam cleat's fitted, the garage door....

But it WORKS now, saved me hours of aggravation over how to go about flipping my hull over & back single-handed during the various operations it's taken me to get as far as I have by now.

Just please make doubly sure everything you do Martin is checked once, twice, and again for robustness and capacity!

Take no short cuts when it's maybe your life at stake if something should fail when you, or someone else, happens to be underneath! NO SURPRISES!!

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#508 7 Oct 2020 5:32 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

https://youtu.be/CKlyxTr-c18

Gents, I have been out on (and in!) the water again today. I had a lovey sail, caught a fish (currently becoming fish cakes) and did some more, significantly more successful capsize tests.

The setup was different from before in that I put 30 litres of water in plastic jerrycans that I wedged in place in the main storage compartment. And about 12 litres in the side storage spaces (which fell out eventually) I also tied four fenders (not sure the volume - but you can see in the video) into the boat. I stuffed some roll bags with just air in under the aft deck to reduce internal volume.

The boat sailed just fine like this, I had ‘hiking breezes’ at various points during the day, although the most part it was ghosting. I think she was trimmed a bit too much down by the bows with this particular weight distribution, so I will try and move some aft for the next test.

I had the rig down for these tests, both main and mizzen.

The main results are that I was able to re-enter the boat more than once successfully from swimming - directly over the side. I also managed on ‘over the stern’ boarding when the boat was again so full of water that i wasn’t able to get back in over the side. The latter seems like a very interesting option as my weight was clearly much closer to the boats centreline and the mizzen made a nice hand hold.

I also tried the ‘fender round the daggerboard’ technique, but don’t think it made much difference. A slightly longer rope to get it further outboard and a larger fender would both improve matters there.

The side water ballast bottles all fell out - so can’t be considered during the analysis - but they stayed happily in place while sailing. I felt that the total of nearly 42 kg added ballast was maybe more than is required and the positioning of it with most in the locker was a bit too far forward. The capsize tests therefore were done only with the 30kg in the main locker in place. (It was wedged in the bottom by a large plastic drum)

The change in characteristics when capsizing I find very encouraging. My next test will be to move the ballast further aft. I found some nice shaped plastic water boxes in the local hardware store (12 litres each) that will fit nicely in the side storage.

I will also get the fenders lashed in place a bit more securely. I am not sure they were ever under very much tension.

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#509 7 Oct 2020 6:54 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Good stuff Guy, encouraging test results there. As I’ve said in previous posts I think this design’s meant to be sailed fairly well loaded with ether 1 person and their gear, or two people... who get along well together in tight spaces.

As my expectations are more towards unloaded solo excursions I expect either to add appropriate ballast to (simulate camping gear) or one of the amas concepts being developed that’ll add a set of ‘training wheels’ in effect for added stability.

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#510 7 Oct 2020 6:55 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

https://youtu.be/Ze6fyUzsOF8

For the nice sailing part before I started getting wet!

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#511 8 Oct 2020 5:54 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Well done Guy!

I am very encouraged by your ballast tests. I would be interested to know if the cockpit buoyancy is really necessary, as it does take up quite a lot of space (especially with two up).

Thank you so much for sharing this with  us. Capsizing in the Norfolk Broads with mud everywhere isn't that appealing, especially this time of year!

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#512 8 Oct 2020 10:52 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I’ve received Mike Waters’ accessory amas suggestions. He’s sent the same plan file on to Dillon for review & comments. I’m anxious to see what Dillon comes up with independently. He’s indicated that may yet be awhile under his current work load.

With the turning of the leaves here as the Seasons change, opportunities for boating will be growing ever fewer so I’m not in any hurry to launch anyway. Will put my intent to build oars behind the prospect of adding amas to my Waterlust as I believe those would be more in line with my plans for its use once I've completed my build.

If I might ask a a favor of you both - could you post what you chose for rigging lines and their lengths please? I have some ideas about what I'd like to choose, based on estimates taken off the build manual's pages, but as this stuff's pricey ordering too much extra's going to be a waste....

Good luck & happy boating to you both! I’ll be watching this thread for your future post while reducing my presence a bit. If I have something either of you need or feel that I can add further contributions to our mutual benefit, rest assured I shall!

Last edited by spclark (8 Oct 2020 1:38 pm)

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#513 10 Oct 2020 10:08 pm

jace
Member
Registered: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 7

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Definitely interested in hearing more about Mike's and Dillon's ama designs!

I guess I can't yet post links but two other potential options for making the Waterlust more open-water-friendly include Mik Storer's drop-in outriggers and Colin Angus' sailing conversion kit for his rowboats.

And while we're talking sailing canoes with outriggers, definitely worth checking out Meade Gougeon's (the late co-founder of West Systems Epoxy) Everglades Challenge winning Elderly Care, with pivoting carbon fiber amas.

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#514 10 Oct 2020 11:22 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Welcome jace!

And thanks for that info! I knew of the Gougeon Bros. efforts from back in the late '70's after I'd built a stripper scow that ended up falling victim to the perils of using polyester resin to sheathe redwood with fiberglass, and the then-obvious shortcomings using exterior DF plywood for bulkheads. Knew nothing of epoxy or marine ply when I undertook to build that but it was fun while it lasted.

Mike's sketches have the akas' fitted with pivots so that the amas attached can be brought alongside the main hull for transport and storage. In addition the whole assembly can be taken off the hull once four bolts are removed.

Once Dillon and Mike have a chance to get back in communication I presume I'll be hearing more about where their thoughts are taking them with this.

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#515 12 Oct 2020 7:05 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi SP. Re. Rigging lines and lengths here is Dillon's recommendation :-

Mains'l:
Halyard: 26' @ 1/4" (6mm)
Downhaul: 9' @ 3/16" - 1/4" (5-6mm)
Mainsheet: 20' @ 3/8" minimum (9mm)

Mizzen:
Halyard: 16' @ 1/4" (6mm)
Downhaul: 9' @ 3/16" - 1/4" (5-6mm)
Mainsheet: 18' @ 1/4" to 3/8" (6mm - 9mm)

I actually used10mm braided for mainsheet. 8mm braided for mizzen sheet. 6mm three strand for everything else (for ease of splicing). I used 3-4mm braidedfor sail lacing.

Regarding lengths of rope, I should use Dillon's recommendations as a guide, but do your own mock up using cheap string as there are quite a lot of variables on individul boats and much depends on things like where you end up having your cleats and  things like whether you have lazy jacks/topping lift (as these can lift the boom quite high and necessitate longer sheets).

I am curious as to your geographical location with your Autumn happening at the same time as ours - You,  Guy and I must all be on similar lattitudes!

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#516 12 Oct 2020 1:23 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks Martin. With my hull done and getting last painting finished, it’ll be awhile before I can do string mock-ups what with the roof height in my garage. Doubt I’ll have spars ready for that before snow falls.... I’m looking to finish hardware ordering, avoid extra shipping by getting cordage at the same time. Better too long than too short!

As for latitude: 43°33′24″N 90°53′16″W while yours is a bit farther north? You maybe around 53 while Guy’s up near 60?

Climate’s not 100% due to latitude after all. That Gulf Stream plays a big role in moderating yours I believe! Those northern latitudes over here are up around Hudson Bay & southern tip of Greenland!

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#517 12 Oct 2020 5:11 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi again! Sorry, didn’t pick up on the latest activity here. I will measure my rope work when I get a minute. I have used 6mm line for pretty much everything, and 9mm for the main and mizzen sheets. I am thinking of going up a size or two for the mainsheet, it rather cut into my hands when it started blowing up, ok , I wasn’t wearing gloves which was perhaps foolish, but I think 10 mm might be worth the investment.

I have just been out working on better attachment points for my ‘side buoyancy fenders’ .  They are lashed to fittings screwed into the shear clamp.

F79B0588-1691-4F65-8A5F-75A2518A040E.jpeg

6DC9104B-0320-4721-821D-CFD624499668.jpeg

They seem to be nicely ‘out of the way’ there, and I guess they may also come in handy as fenders too, either for mooring, or rolling the boat up a beach.

Yes, Bergen is about 60 Degrees north, and reliably, so far, warmed by the Gulf Stream!

Last edited by Bergen_Guy (12 Oct 2020 5:14 pm)

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#518 12 Oct 2020 5:46 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Let’s all hope that generous warming current’ll continue doing what it does best, eh?

Meanwhile that other one, the Jet Stream’s (@ 4,200m altitude here) doing its level best to blow us into Winter!

856CD356-D22A-42F0-BD37-9664B538A55A.jpeg

But so far we haven’t seen 32F while I’ve heard tell it’s not far off....

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#519 13 Oct 2020 6:22 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi Guy.

My experience with capsizing Gaia was that without any additional floatation bags, the boat righted very easily, but it was keeping it 'righted' that was the problem as she was too buoyant! Also, once righted the water level inside the boat was remarkably shallow ie about 4" .

Given this, I wonder whether it was your ballast rather than your buoyancy which dramatically improved the stability of  your boat with water in it? If you are going to be doing more tests (which I hope very selfishly that you are!), I would be really interested to know if the buoyancy bags actually make any difference.

Many thanks for once again 'blazing the trail' with Waterlust research. I don't think Gaia will be on the water again this year, so I will watch you progress with huge interest.

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#520 13 Oct 2020 7:58 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

PS I was interested to see in your earlier video that attaching the buoyancy bag to the daggerboard made no noticable improvement in stability.

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#521 13 Oct 2020 10:08 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Some rope lengths from Svale

Mizzen
downhaul: 2.2m/7”
Halyard: 5.5m /18”
Sheet: 4.5m / 15”

Main
halyard: 10m /27”
Sheet: 8.2m / 32”
Downhaul: not measured yet as it’s in the boat under cover...

I see these are a bit longer than Martin’s. I wasn’t particularly careful with ensuring I was using minimum lengths.

Last edited by Bergen_Guy (13 Oct 2020 10:35 am)

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#522 13 Oct 2020 12:49 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks, both of you for those #’s. I’ll err on the long side when I make up my order later this week.

I have #’s gleaned from scaling lines off Dillon’s manual drawings but lacking anything I can measure 1:1 with a tape I appreciate your efforts getting me that info.

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#523 14 Oct 2020 8:52 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

https://www.swallowyachtsassociation.org/?page_id=1183

I have re-found the page about the physics of vessel stability, including some nice explanation of why a ballasted hull is more stable than the same hull with less load in it.

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#524 15 Oct 2020 8:22 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

What an excellent article! Thanks Guy.

Translated to the Waterlust design, am I right in thinking that the optimum position for both the ballast and the buoyancy would be in the two end compartments - the ballast for the 'dumbell' effect and the buoyancy to match the Swallow configuration?

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#525 15 Oct 2020 11:50 am

jace
Member
Registered: 10 Oct 2020
Posts: 7

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks for the welcome, SP!

Another potentially helpful resource, Hugh Horton's essays on using and developing his sailing canoe design Bufflehead, including one specifically on cockpit flotation and capsizing: https://www.bootsbaugarage.ch/hugh/h_essay2_en.htm

Last edited by jace (15 Oct 2020 12:47 pm)

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