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#476 27 Sep 2020 7:27 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

https://youtu.be/KjDaAxug67Q

More on the capsize tests. Should be pretty self explanatory, but do ask if there are details that are not clear from the film.

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#477 27 Sep 2020 8:20 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Nice... thanks for posting!

(I have to ask you B_G, would you mind revealing what you might weigh? And were you wearing a dry suit under your jacket?)

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#478 28 Sep 2020 6:04 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks Guy. This is exactly what I found. The only thing I would add is that with a light breeze it is even more difficult to keep her upright!
(No wet/dry suit. 72Kgs)

(SP. My 2016 project mini_-La-vie-en-rose-.jpeg

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#479 28 Sep 2020 6:32 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Good morning.

I wasn't wearing a wet or dry suit, just a few thin layers of wool. As this was a planned event I had a towel and change of clothes waiting on the beach. I guess I was in the water for about 10 minutes all told and was glad to get out when I did.  That can't have been a very enjoyable hour for Martin, who really needed to get the boat upright - I am not sure what I would have tried next had I needed to get the boat upright. I weigh about 77 kgs - which is just a touch over 12 stone. Not sure how much water my clothes added to the mix.  I think one thing that may not help is the very large free surface of water in Svale which allows the water the 'slosh about' coupled with the narrow beam and the relatively heavy mast. I will keep thinking, although the weather for experiments without a wet or dry suite is slipping away here in Norway!

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#480 28 Sep 2020 8:16 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi Guy.

One question please. In your earlier capsizing experiment (without the mast, sail and rigging) did you find it possible to re-enter the capsized boat? If so, do you think that by lightening (hollowing) or shortening (smaller sail) the mast would solve the problem?

Like you, I am running out of time this year for experimenting!

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#481 28 Sep 2020 8:34 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Martin,

Now you mention it, I don't think I ever did manage to get back in to the hull alone. I think on the video you can just hear Hannes talking to me or his friend at one point saying something like, "you won't manage Dad; last time I had to get in first". And that was right. During the 'hull only' test,  I was swimming in the water and held the hull stable while Hannes got in from the other side. He then bailed the boat out, and then helped me in. I can't remember if that was by hiking out on the other side or giving me a pull in, but it was a team effort.  I think that would suggest that a smaller rig, although undoubtedly would help, may not solve the 're-entry' issue, even if the resulting vessel is more stable.

I have also mailed Dillon to keep him updated with my experience.   I do wonder if outriggers may be the only reliable solution, however loathed I am to add extra complexity to the set up of the boat. Ifear that for every extra 10 minutes of rigging time, I will lose the attention of one child!

Last edited by Bergen_Guy (28 Sep 2020 8:36 am)

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#482 28 Sep 2020 10:34 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Might either of you two have some idea of the freeboard your canoes provide when loaded?

As mine’s yet to be launched I have only the design waterline to go by. I think I’ll need more than that once my dialogue with Mike Waters begins in earnest.

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#483 28 Sep 2020 10:44 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Nor really sure SP - I can measure next time I am afloat!

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#484 28 Sep 2020 11:04 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I’ll be making a SWAG after breakfast, based upon the images I have of those that have been launched already. But real measurements will be more useful, particularly with the sailing rig’s weight over just that of hull and occupant(s)!

Martin that’s a sweet ride you’ve got there! I can only guess... not a Lotus, nor Moggie (motors for the current twin’s built about 15 miles east of me here!)... so maybe some pre-war Austin?

And thanks for the weight numbers. Mine approaches 82 kg in street clothes. Tried for years to shed three or more to no lasting satisfaction.

Last edited by spclark (28 Sep 2020 11:09 am)

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#485 28 Sep 2020 11:16 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

While out running I was pondering if you could make a nice cross beam for some Amas (are they Amas or Akas?) that was 'pinned in place' using a big piece of timber in the aftermost mast step (Sorry Martin - I guess that won't help you...) and then lashed down to fitting in the gunwales. I will be interested to see where this goes!

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#486 28 Sep 2020 11:16 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Sorry SP. I don't have the measurements you need either.
(The car is a self-built using a 'Pembleton' space frame and a Citroen 2CV engine, transmission and suspension. Bodywork is my own). 

Thanks Guy for the capsize test info. From my email conversation with Dillon he is going down the route of mini outriggers along the lines of these http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/products/sa … utriggers/ as they should be small enough not to over-complicate things.

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#487 28 Sep 2020 8:12 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Bergen_Guy wrote:

....I will be interested to see where this goes!

Me too!

MartinC wrote:

Sorry SP. I don't have the measurements you need either.
(The car is a self-built using a 'Pembleton' space frame and a Citroen 2CV engine, transmission and suspension. Bodywork is my own).

NICE JOB that! What was your inspiration? I tried using Google Lens to bring up something about what I thought it might be, bears an uncanny resemblance to some early race cars over your way.

MartinC wrote:

Thanks Guy for the capsize test info. From my email conversation with Dillon he is going down the route of mini outriggers along the lines of these http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/products/sa … utriggers/ as they should be small enough not to over-complicate things.

That Solway Dory webpage was what got me going down this recent path, then I came across https://smalltridesign.com/, started up a dialogue with Mike Waters there.

Amas are the side elements, akas are what join them to each other and a vaka, the hull in between.

Just got off phone w/Dillon. Stay tuned....

Last edited by spclark (28 Sep 2020 8:44 pm)

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#488 29 Sep 2020 6:33 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Poor Dillon, he must be bombarded by Waterlust questions these days!  I shared the capsize video with him and he had a few suggestions.

1) Get some buoyancy bags in at the sides of the hull, that will help to reduce the  space the water can 'slosh' into at the sides
2) try and climb in over the aft deck using the mizzen mast to help.
3) He also suggested an idea where a buoyancy bag, or fender, attached to a length of rope, could be looped over the daggerboard, the length of rope being just long enough that the fender would sit under the side of the hull and stop the boat rolling back on top of the person trying to get in.

I will give all of these a try when I get time.

He also suggested that the boats behave better loaded as it lowers the centre of gravity. I have been half wondering if I should carry a few large plastic jerrycans of water. I will also try that next time I go out.

We must not forget that we are taking the first steps in a craft that not many people have sailed much (relative to something like a lazer or an Optimist!). We should probably expect that the details and tricks of how best to use them are not really known yet (at least to us!). Experiment Experiment Experiment, and let's keep sharing so we can learn from each other.

It would be great if this issue can be sorted 'short term' by developing the right techniques and buoyancy / weight distribution, while the engineering solution is matured.

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#489 29 Sep 2020 8:19 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I agree completely with your comments Guy. Much of the the fun in building something is in overcoming the 'issues'. Dillon has my full support and admiration in designing such a lovely boat.

Prior to the aca solution being finalised, I have fashioned a shorter mast and will be experimenting with a reduced mainsail area.

This has the advantage for me in taking the boom forward of the cockpit and away from my 'propulsion unit' who doesn't appreciate a flapping sail and boom immediately over her head! It also means that all the spars can be stored inside the boat and the main mast can be removed whilst underway. Also, it allows me to pass underneath many of the bridges on the Norfolk Borads without removing the mast.

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#490 29 Sep 2020 11:59 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I admit I’ve entertained thoughts as to this Waterlust’s suitability for my primary recreational pursuits. In that it’s tagged as an expedition canoe by its manufacturer didn’t deter me in the least when it premiered back in 2016. It simply struck a chord in my being as something I wanted to build to fulfill a long-standing desire to get back out on the water.

And it was beautiful as well, an elegant solution in the manner of watercraft that were commonplace 100 or more years ago.

The ballast thing is a great point: add weight, as low as possible but securely fastened in so it can’t shift or fall out in the event of a mishap. 400 lbs capacity is ample for one adult aboard to add additional ballast. I have no doubt there’s a safety factor in that number too so a 175 lb sailor ought to be able to add ballast enough to make the craft sit as low in the water as if another 175 - 200 pounds were aboard and still be quite safe.

You two are the leaders in developing this design’s potential. That you’ve brought your experiences to this forum for myself and others to consider as well as contribute to is something I’m so very thankful for as my build continues. Well done!

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#491 3 Oct 2020 6:03 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks SP. Your excellent contributions during the build are an invaluable source of information for any builder.
I have had an interesting exchange with Dillon.
The good news is that he has been given the go-ahead to develop the ama package which he tells me should be ready for a winter 'project' for us!
I have asked him about balast, particularly replacing the daggerboard with a heavier steel one. I am still thinking about this, but using 8mm plate with plywood packing in the case and a 5mm  sheet welded either side at the bottom would give you a 14Kg board. I think this is about as heavy as you would want and Dillon has pointed out that it would require a mechanism for keeping it up. More thinking required!

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#492 3 Oct 2020 1:06 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hmmm... adds weight, yes but maybe some added stresses that the daggerboard trunk may not be up to dealing with?

I trust Dillon’s experience in designing the Waterlust’s structural aspects in that regard. Too, a lot of that additional weight’s not down low.

I’ve been pondering making a lead casting shaped to mimic the lower 30 cm of the plywood daggerboard. My rough calculations just now gives me nearly 11 kg for that much lead and it’s all at the bottom. Ensuring the lead stays attached would require some serious thought however! Bronze rods embedded in between the plywood halves? Bronze sheet w/ perforations, around which the lead would be cast? The upper portion being sandwiched between the ply halves then rivited?

Dunno... Either approach is kind of complex.

I’m looking forward to seeing what Dillon & CLC come up with as well as what Mike Waters’ efforts yield..

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#493 3 Oct 2020 8:20 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Lots of interesting thoughts here. I must admit I had not considered going down the road of adding ballast to the board itself. From my very limited understanding of vessel stability while adding ballast low down helps, simply loading most hulls, and increasing their displacement, will improve their stability. I think it’s possible to quickly end up spiralling down the heavier / bigger / stronger spiral when making one part much heavier than it currently is.  My latest daydream has been to add water ballast into the front storage tank in the form of a filled Jerry can or two. I will fill the aft ‘under deck’ space with the large plastic storage boxes we used while canoe camping during the summer. Then I thought a few sausage shaped bags filled with water in the storage outboard of the cockpit floor longitudinal stringers, and some fenders / airbags above those.  So I add more weight low down to increase the mass and displacement, reduce the internal volume available to water and get some more buoyancy in the sides of the hull. That’s what I am thinking at the moment anyway...  I also heard from Dillon that the outriggers will get some attention- I will be lining up in the queue for a kit. I had a long discussion with Mark from Solway Dory, an experienced canoe sailor. He said that outriggers were a de-facto standard these days for folks ‘heading out’ away from the most sheltered waters. We may do well to learn from their experience. Good luck all!

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#494 3 Oct 2020 8:37 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Before Martin's posts relating to us his misadventure with the sheet tangle & resulting capsize, I'd been mulling over the idea of loading my Waterlust (once it's launched of course) with sandbags, securely held in place with webbing straps, so that its waterline when fitted with sails is more in line with what Dillon had in mind for what is tagged as an expedition canoe after all, expected to be used by at minimum one occupant along with several pounds of 'gear' for some extended time.

This stuff is easily moved about, could be placed in several locations so the aggregate weight of it all would enable the best trim for sailing, and ought not compromise what built-in buoyancy the hull has with those two sealed air compartments at either end.

Once it'd been determined what the optimal location(s) might be, then perhaps shaped lead castings could be fabricated that wouldn't be affected by taking on water in the event of a capsize. Being more dense too the lead ballast, once fitted, would serve to lower the CG somewhat more.

We've had our first frost of the season here as of night before last so I'm finding it more and more frequent I'm taking on other kinds of projects than keeping up with my build. The hull is essentially done save for finishing painting of the outer hull, and the spars are coming along. I may soon "hang it all up" for the winter by putting my hull into its winter storage mode, held aloft in my garage bay so the parking space beneath can serve to keep my MINI out of what the coming winter brings to our doorstep.

Be exciting to see what Dillon comes up with when time becomes available to him now that he's got CLC backing for the endeavor. I'll continue with my conversations with Mike Waters as well being that I'm inclined to follow through with what I begin if I have any expectation of the desired outcome. Then we can compare the two approaches.

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#495 4 Oct 2020 7:15 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

The sandbags, (or Guy's water ballast idea) seem a  very good approach to me, the only problem (for us all) will be the testing, as it will require numerous capsizes by trial and error to establish the optimum amount and position of the weights, and now autumn is upon us, that is becomming less and less inviting! I am putting the steel daggerboard idea on hold for that reason, although I hope to get at least one last sail with my new reduced mainsail rig before the winter.

I would be very interested to see your garage hoist pully system SP (particularly which blocks go where), as I have numerous blocks and tackle left over from previous sailing days and have had it in mind to lift Gaia up above the car as you have done.

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#496 4 Oct 2020 7:38 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I know you have this Guy, but it might be helpful to others. This is Dillons recommendation for using a buoyancy bag for keeping the boat stable while you clamber aboard. My only reservation is that you would have to be very careful once aboard to keep your weight on the buoyancy bag side (which might be difficult with wind and tide) to avoid flipping over the other way.

'I wonder if it would be effective to use a buoyancy bag on the exterior of the boat to help with capsize recovery. With the boat capsized, you'd loop a line tied to the ends of the bag around the daggerboard, with the bag positioned on the hull-bottom side of the boat. As you right the boat the daggerboard will tug on the line, drawing the bag to the hull side. The line should be just long enough so that with the boat upright there's just a bit of tension on the bag line and the bag is snug against the hull. As you climb aboard over the bag, the bag will prevent the boat from capsizing on top of you. Once aboard and ready to sail, untie (or unclip) the line from one end of the bag and stow it under the aft deck or outboard under the side decks'.Waterlust-capsize-drill.jpg

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#497 4 Oct 2020 12:20 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

I would be very interested to see your garage hoist pully system SP (particularly which blocks go where), as I have numerous blocks and tackle left over from previous sailing days and have had it in mind to lift Gaia up above the car as you have done.

CLC sells the Harken kits, available in different configurations depending upon the weight of the object being manipulated:

https://www.clcboats.com/shop/products/ … hoist.html

I chose the 200 lb. model, thinking this was sufficient for the hull alone once it's completed.

You may have a vendor over your side of the pond, make getting your hands on one a bit less tedious.

Early on I used a drawing lifted from CLC's build manual to work out the geometry of mounting positions for the Hoister bits, as well as how the Waterlust might potentially interfere with the garage stuff (garage door, ridge beam, shelving I have in place):

Hoister_Geometry.jpg

(Working by 'trial and error" up on a ladder, drilling holes into the drywall trying to find rafters I've learned is best avoided.)

You're looking at a schematic of the garage layout in cross-section here, taken at the plane of the hull's centerline. The red rectangle is how I determined the maximum spread of the two pair of cheek blocks thru which the lift lines are arranged, as well as where in the garage roof each pair needed to be placed so that the hull would clear obstructions once in place. The two alternate positions show how the hull can be positioned to clear the garage door, a requirement for success!

I'll take a couple of pics later, showing how I did a bit of reconfiguration when I mounted the kit I selected. My garage offers limited space so I had to be creative in placement of the various components. In the Harken installation manual they have an optional layout where the control line is taken off to the side rather than to the front, which is how I had to set mine up but with yet another fairly minor modification. If you wish you can download the installation and use manual here:

https://www.harken.com/uploadedfiles/Pr … F/4907.pdf

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#498 4 Oct 2020 1:49 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

We're gonna crash Fyne Boats forum server if we keep this up... this post is #498 yet the index suggests there's 1,669 to this thread!!

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#499 4 Oct 2020 4:02 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks SP that is exactly the type of arrangement I want. If it not too much to ask, a picture of each of the blocks (showing the purchase) would be very useful as I think I have all the blocks and rope necessary. No hurry though.
Thanks.

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#500 5 Oct 2020 1:12 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Suspended.jpeg

Harken_Hoister_Config.jpeg

This image shows how I mounted the HarkenHoister components against my garage ceiling. I used the previously shown drawing to determine just where the two sets of sheaves would need to be positioned that would allow me to put the canoe into the rig yet still clear the garage door when opened as well as that ridge beam that runs across the full width of the space.

In that I had steel rack shelving on the two walls (the garage door's the third) I had to rig the control line and its camcleat to a truss arrangement to get it out away from the shelving. Even then I had to rig a 'trip line' (that's the small yellow line shown in the inset below) to 'unlock' the camcleat when I want to lower whatever's being held aloft by the four hoisting lines.

Those are tied to webbing that actually contacts the hull, secured to one another by metal snap links like you'd find on a backpack or similar. Then the four lines are routed up to sheaves mounted on 'pigtail' lag screws where they turn 90° to run onto a pair of sheaves - two lines per sheave - then they're routed towards the block that serves to give one the mechanical advantage to lift whatever's being hoisted with minimal effort.

The 200 pound hoister I bought has a 6-part system so the 120 pound of canoe effectively takes just 20 pounds to lift, not including whatever friction the whole system adds. My guess is that adds about 20 pounds yet it's easy enough to lift my completed hull up into the garage ceiling area without undue effort.

HarkenHoister_CamCleat.jpeg

The Harken installation manual suggests both ways of rigging the control line, whether you have room to take it forward or must take it to the side as I've done.

I did have one issue with the way I rigged those twin sheaves however. Initially I used the supplied lag screws as pulley axles but the stresses imposed during lifting and lowering repeatedly caused those lags to begin to turn towards the 6-part block, causing the lift lines to suffer a bit of chafe. So I pulled the lags, substituting through-bolts for their axles, as well as adding some steel angle pieces to keep the wood underneath from deforming under load.

The red strap ratchet tie-downs are up there to act as 'safeties' once the hull's suspended. I took Harken's advice to heart about securing such a mass to the pigtail lags they provide. Though their Hoister is rated for more than the weight I expet to put on it, given the inherent threat to life and limb (let alone to the hull itself) were something to come loose, it seems like a worthwhile precaution.

Last edited by spclark (5 Oct 2020 1:15 am)

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