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#301 20 May 2020 12:23 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 95

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

...I decided to experiment with the underside of the hatch cover and cleaned it thoroughly with acetone before applying the epoxy. Perfect result!

I hope this will help anyone else with this issue. Thanks to SP for pointing me in the right direction.

You're most welcome MartinC! Glad I could get you over your frustration!

Now it seems I need to 'take some of my own medicine' as it were -

Oh_Rats.jpeg

While I'm planning to paint pretty much everything on my Waterlust, I'm dismayed at how easily a little inattention (and I thought I was doing everything right!) can lead to that frustration I spoke of!

These are a couple of smallish areas on my daggerboard I coated for (what I had hoped to be) the last time yesterday. Just goes to show we're none of us immune to a less-than-perfect result. I certainly believed I'd done everything necessary to produce a better result: thorough sanding first, the vacuuming off dust, then wipe with new microfiber cloth dampened in plain water, then wiped again with denatured alcohol (carefully decanted into a clean container from the bulk can first) just prior to mixing up the batch that would get rollered on.

Curiously I haven't seen this elsewhere so far save for the drive shelves I'd made up. I've got a quart (a bit more than a liter) of acetone around someplace but may go buy a gallon if this is any warning of what I yet may face otherwise.

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#302 20 May 2020 7:46 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 68

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Sorry to hear you have the same issue SP. It is infuriating, as when it goes on it looks fine then a few minutes later it goes like this. Exactly the same as mine.
I really can't put my finger on why it works sometimes and not others. It can't be the natural oils in the wood, as mine happened on the second coat, when presumably  the wood was sealed. Acetone seems to be the answer, but does anyone out there know why this is happening, seemingly in such a random way?

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#303 20 May 2020 9:26 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 150

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Tomorrow we are off to Hardangerfjord for the maiden voyage of Svale, in canoe form. So, still work to do, but the boys have been so excited I can’t put it off! So I quickly put the hatch dogs on, and fitted the inspection hatch.  These will all come off later, as I do want to get one more coat of varnish on the deck.

Testing, testing...
B0D07DFE-4A56-4B87-A7F0-9F82046D0FB2.jpeg

CFC5F40B-B479-491B-8ED7-9ACF1F090454.jpeg

Plenty of space for me!

Various small parts!

B855BC0A-623E-4754-A4B7-91CFC18D4065.jpeg

B75A5B11-88B0-410A-B56F-7AE57DA16214.jpeg
Hatch dogs will eventually be blue.

800AC947-084D-486C-A705-7543023405C3.jpeg

Last edited by Bergen_Guy (20 May 2020 9:27 pm)

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#304 21 May 2020 3:54 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 95

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

It can't be the natural oils in the wood, as mine happened on the second coat, when presumably  the wood was sealed. Acetone seems to be the answer, but does anyone out there know why this is happening, seemingly in such a random way?

I’m certain it’s contamination of one kind or another, it’s just too random & spotty to be anything else.

Those pics I took of my daggerboard after coating? I watched the surface as it self-leveled ‘cause there was one spot that just didn’t look like the rest of that side.

Sure enough that’s where the defect presented itself once the cure began. It was quite evident once what was left over in that mixing cup’d begun to get stiff while still sticky & stretchable.

I’m reluctant to think of acetone as a ‘must have’ to do good epoxy work, it’s just too flammable to use with careless abandon. Besides it’s toxicity’s pretty high when inhaled or absorbed through the skin:

http://sds.chemtel.net/webclients/safar … cetone.pdf

- so be sure to use adequate PPE as well as good ventilation once you’ve opened a can of it.

The only other fairly common and available solvent that’s even worse is Methyl Ethyl Ketone - MEK for short - otherwise often referred to as ‘cancer in a can’ but that may not even be available outside the US retail
market. It has its uses but again needs to be handled with extreme care.

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#305 21 May 2020 8:57 am

MartinG
Member
Registered: 29 Mar 2020
Posts: 6

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

The Gougeon Brothers (who came up with West System Epoxy) recommend alcohol as a solvent, applied with white paper towels to remove the chance of contamination. I would therefore suggest isopropyl alcohol (denatured alcohol) as a safer alternative to acetone. Edit: sorry - this should read "rubbing alcohol", not denatured alcohol.)

Their book - The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction - is available as a free download on the net if you fancy a 400 page read!

Cheers
Martin

Last edited by MartinG (22 May 2020 2:45 pm)

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#306 21 May 2020 12:53 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 95

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinG wrote:

The Gougeon Brothers (who came up with West System Epoxy) recommend alcohol as a solvent, applied with white paper towels to remove the chance of contamination. I would therefore suggest isopropyl alcohol (denatured alcohol) as a safer alternative to acetone.

Their book - The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction - is available as a free download on the net if you fancy a 400 page read!

Thanks MartinG, I remember buying a copy of that when they first brought it out back in the '70's! WEST was the first brand of epoxy I ever messed about with.

Here in the US what's commonly sold as 'denatured alcohol' is typically a blend of ethyl alcohol with a bit of methyl added to render it toxic to avoid being taxation as liquor. Denatured alcohol is mostly what I've always used for epoxy prep and for making up shellac from flakes for furniture finishing.

Isopropyl is readily available but in smaller quantities, for a higher per-volume price, in two dilutions with water: 70% and 91%. From specialty suppliers it's available in larger volumes at 99% for a considerably higher price - denatured ethanol's roughly US $17/gallon (4.2 liter) where 99% isopropyl's closer to $60/gallon plus shipping.

From what I've read on various forums, ethyl alcohol blends aren't often found elsewhere. Methyl - sold under various labels - is? Maybe isopropyl is too but it's not mentioned often. One thing I discovered recently is that in the state of California, denatured ethyl alcohol was banned for retail sales last year while it remains available as E85 vehicle fuel blended with gasoline (petrol elsewhere) but that's NOT to be recommended for cleaning anything owing to the dangers associated with gasoline!

I've tried using plain white, unprinted paper towels of several brands over time. Problem I've encountered pretty much universally is the lint these tend to leave behind, particularly when working with raw, uncoated materials that have any degree of roughness. There's a brand of blue-colored paper shop towels here where I live that's both reasonably priced and seems to be lint-free (and washable!) that I've tried that seems to work well. When I've used it I haven't noted any issues like what I just experienced with the microfiber cloths I'd hoped would be superior. Those towels were brand new yet something went awry along the way.

I've just run a few of those microfiber towels thru the laundry, want to see if they're any better now than when new. Won't be used on anything 'mission-critical' of course, but hoping that after a wash'n'dry they're less likely to be suspected if I see evidence of the same issue elsewhere.

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#307 21 May 2020 6:05 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 150

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Well, getting it on the roof was not so easy alone, but with a neighbour to help it went fine. Upright and tied down if was solid and no problems. We christened the boat and made a sacrifice of local apple juice (we are in the heart of Norwegian apple country here) and have taken our maiden voyages, paddling about by the campsite we are staying at. Initial impressions are that she has a good turn of speed, but is considerably tippier than the Klepper we are used to. All had fun, and the boys even ventured a few little tours on their own, so the main aim has been achieved! Although I wouldn’t recommend it, you can fit five people in it!!

8A6C8CEB-30F4-41E5-B796-1005172AF948.jpeg
On the roof

D1008852-BD59-4583-A508-8B567525BD60.jpeg
Sharing the apple juice around after the christening

83A83E52-0DBF-499C-9ABD-61181B53D3F9.jpeg
The maiden voyage!

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The boys return

26CB714B-5EFE-401B-A5DA-E62BD7CBB46D.jpeg
The eldest has a go on his own

Our preferred propulsion is the single canoe paddles, or the double paddle, but always from sitting on the deck. That high sitting position may explain the relative sensitivity of the boat compared to the Klepper where the centre of gravity is much lower.

Much fun had by all!

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#308 22 May 2020 5:54 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 68

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Well done Guy! Very interested in your early observations.
I am glad it fits on a car roof top as I was doubtful about the length. There must be quite an overhang at the back!
I am going to be launching /recovering single handed so I was thinking about one of these https://www.tbruk.com/t-load-197-c.asp
I was also interested in you paddling positions. I guessed it might be a bit tippy when sitting on the deck!

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#309 22 May 2020 1:35 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 95

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I’m certain apparent stability’s affected by where users are putting their bodies! Higher up will drastically increase rolling moment, make a hull like Waterlust’s seem more ‘tippy’ than if ‘ballast’ is lower down!

Good seeing pics of this new launch on the water! Gives me a better idea of where waterline ends up when in use! Can’t wait to see more once spars & rigging’s been added!

I’m trailering mine; decided not long ago that at ~ 80 lbs. & 75% done it’s not something I’d look forward to car-toppng at my age. Too the roof racks on my MINI Clubman are really close together so overhang’d be pretty extreme on such a shortish vehicle! I’m a ways off from launch date so don’t expect pics anytime soon, but they’ll come along in good time! Stay safe everyone, stay healthy!

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#310 25 May 2020 12:57 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 95

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

...but does anyone out there know why this is happening, seemingly in such a random way?

I posted those images to the forum at Woodenboat.com a couple of days ago. Just received a comment that may be what you and I both have been fretting over.

That thread’s here:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread. … ble-Gloves

- and makes for good reading anyway.

The post I’m thankful for:

“ That pic looks like amine blush contamination to me. If you're not recoating while the pox is still tacky, you should remove the blush first before sanding. Plain old water and a thorough scouring with a scotch brite pad will completely remove the blush. Sanding amine blush can drive the amines back into the epoxy, to later bedevil you. There is no need to use anything but water for cleaning epoxy prior to recoating.”

Makes sense if blush is there at all and not removed before sanding. It’s easy enough to wipe cured coats down with plain water and a ScotchBrite pad, which is what I’m now going to do going forward. Once that’s done the washed and scuffed epoxy can be sanded if need be, then operations continued.

I’m currently final-coating my cockpit; fortunately haven’t experienced any more of what I showed happening in those pics. But knowing that amine blush is still likely, I’m willing to modify my approach to surface prep to mitigate any further appearances!

Last edited by spclark (25 May 2020 1:01 pm)

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#311 25 May 2020 4:23 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 150

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Now then back to work, I seem to remember someone posting something about a clever method of keeping the internal rudder blade control run clean - was it as simple as using some clear plastic tube in the guide slot while the epoxy cures and the pulling said tube out later?

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#312 25 May 2020 5:49 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 95

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Yep, t’was m’self I believe, one of the only posts on CLC’S forum I was successful getting images to show up in! Notable if for no other reason!

https://www.clcboats.com/forum/clcforum … 45519.html

I just bonded my rudder trunk’s sides to the inner spacer yesterday, so here’s an updated image if it helps you:

522E51AA-7FDB-47EF-8C17-00B168D4DB08.jpeg

Once the epoxy’s cured a bit more I’ll be finishing those raw edges quite a bit, adding the tiller arm & epoxifying everything that so far’s still raw. Maybe tomorrow, still a day off before going back to work!

Last edited by spclark (25 May 2020 5:54 pm)

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#313 25 May 2020 7:07 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 150

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks SP - much appreciated :-)

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