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#751 2 Jul 2021 2:35 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 324

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread. … ost6479184

WoodenBoat Forum thread on improving balanced lugs’ pointing ability; maybe what worked for the last poster might also work for you too? Worth a read…

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#752 3 Jul 2021 4:12 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 324

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Worked up a 'trial' of that tiller>yoke lashing just now:

Yoke-tiller_lash-up.jpg

- take a look please, let me know if it's correct!

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#753 3 Jul 2021 7:29 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 83

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks, SP - Sounds like a good idea to add an additional tie from the throat grommet (so there are three total) to transfer the force from the luff straight to the yard to keep the luff from pulling the sail along the yard -- I noticed things were a bit strange there when I only had one tie at that grommet to stretch the sail along the yard and saw that the grommet was pulling away from the yard a fair amount when I put on some downhaul tension.

I already have a loose-footed main with adjustable outhaul (which I recommend), and my sail shape doesn't seem too bad.  I think for me the main improvement will come from adjusting the trim fore and aft to get the bow back in the water to get rid of the huge amount of lee helm.  That will mean ballast in a forward compartment, and not storing much under the rear deck (where I was putting the two-wheeled transport cart).

Last edited by Chuck (3 Jul 2021 7:48 pm)

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#754 4 Jul 2021 3:46 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 246

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

That knot on the tiller looks fine SP.
I would put a figure of eight knot in the tail for extra safety.

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#755 4 Jul 2021 3:52 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 324

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks Martin! (The tail being the shortish end leading forward from the yoke connection hole?)

Being new to this pursuit it’s my understanding the longer end goes maybe to a fairlead farther forward then over to a ‘safety’ cleat on deck so tiller can’t go wandering off?

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#756 4 Jul 2021 3:59 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 284

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hiya, I just went out for a sail - it was a bit windy and I had two kids with me, so I decided to try putting the mizzen up in the middle mast position, and see how things went. A great success actually. I took some video, as did my son, so there is footage from outside the boat. Here’s a link https://youtu.be/1XI1PAq_PT8

I also got hold of a copy of ‘canoeing with sail and paddle’ from 1870! A great read so far. The author recommended a deck level seat as an indispensable item, so I made one just to see. It just sits on the cocktpit coaming, and allows me to sit at deck height on the centreline of the boat. Not always useful,  but it does save the yo-yo up down up down thing if the wind is a bit unsteady.

The progress all round is very exciting to see!

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#757 4 Jul 2021 4:09 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 324

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Cool! Thanks for the feedback on my ‘mizzen in the middle’ idea! Yet another means to an end!

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#758 4 Jul 2021 4:32 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 284

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I think the idea has a lot going for it! Everything is nice and light - really didn’t feel the same tendency to roll as I feel with the ‘big rig’, ok, it’s not as fast, but if looking at the scenery is what your after, then this would be a great way to do it!

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#759 4 Jul 2021 6:26 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 324

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Closer & closer with every little task I strike from my list…

BBC7DF87-1D0C-4D48-9AFA-A106348E2588.jpg

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#760 4 Jul 2021 7:07 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 284

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

F85E2942-F09A-46E8-B2E5-63D2D2A11E7D.jpg

Thought this might be worth a quick look SP! From ‘canoeing’ by JD Hayward, published in 1893 - I suspect much of what he says remains valid today.

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#761 4 Jul 2021 7:07 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 284

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Oh wow! She really is looking fantastic!

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#762 4 Jul 2021 7:40 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 246

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Well done SP. The finish on your boat is exceptional!
Regarding the tiller tie, I don't know if this is right but I do exactly as you have done but just tie a knot in the loose end (after the two half hitches. I have found that this is very secure without taking the rope forward to a fairlead and cleat. I tie a seperate 'tether' rope from the tiller handle end to an eye just behind the seat so that when it goes overboard I can retrieve it.
Very interesting to see your short rig Guy. The end result is not dissimilar to my rig. Thanks for the DJ Hayward link. I'll look him up!

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#763 4 Jul 2021 10:47 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 324

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Bergen_Guy wrote:

Thought this might be worth a quick look SP! From ‘canoeing’ by JD Hayward, published in 1893 - I suspect much of what he says remains valid today.

I'd agree Guy!

There's a copy available at AbeBooks.com (UK) right now too but at almost US $50 then an additional $27-something for shipping I think I'll pass... unless you want to loan me yours for a few days!

Years ago I found a paperback entitled Sailing Canoes put out by our American Canoe Association dating back not quite as far as yours but still, 1930 is getting awfully close to 100 years ago, isn't it!

The copy I found was a republication from 1980, the 100th anniversary of the ACA, by a fellow who ran a canoe 'emporium' the Chicagoland Canoe Base, name of Ralph Frese.

Both Ralph and his shop have gone on to other waters than we navigate but stuff like this, and the stories some folks can tell about Ralph and his love for canoes continue.

Here's one image I scanned that might look a little familiar -

Decked_Sailer_8b.jpg

- despite the poor quality of this 4th generation's reproduction quality.

When I came across this page I imagined perhaps something similar had inspired Dillon when he took on the task of bringing the Waterlust project forward several years ago.

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#764 5 Jul 2021 5:17 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 284

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I looked up a few numbers yesterday, and see that the lug rig for the kids pram is 28 square feet, with the mizzen at 18 square feet we get to 46 - just shy of the 50 -to 60 square feet that Nautilus type boats seem to have been using. I just need to make myself a new mast and I will give that a try! Martin, looks like I may be only a steel dagger board away from your solution!!  I know that the spars for the boys boat are a great deal lighter than the ones I made for Svale, and I think simply the reduction of mass aloft has a big influence.

I can see from that lovely old photo SP, that I am going to have to get a new hat to really look the part!

Let me have your address SP and I will send you the book once I have read it!

Last edited by Bergen_Guy (5 Jul 2021 12:18 pm)

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#765 6 Jul 2021 6:45 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 284

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I manage to get out again today after hastily shaping a new shorter / thinner mast to match the borrowed main sail this morning. I got a light airs sail in this afternoon.  It’s a huge difference. The lighter rig allowed me to put the sail up with the boat on the launching wheels, which I would never try with the big rig. The boat also has no tendency to roll when the sail is sheeted out. I felt quite at ease sitting down in the bottom of the hull, even when the wind got up to proper sailing strength for a bit. I think if anything she could have handled a bit more sail, but the sense of stability was wonderful. I am going to do a bit more testing with this rig in stronger winds, but for a quick sail, this is much less fuss than ‘big rig plus outriggers’. I do wonder how much of the rolling tendency is related to the weight of the mast /boom / yard maybe more effort there to make hollow ones might be worthwhile, but I suspect there are limits, as things get longer they necessarily need to be stronger. The boom and yard on the ‘small rig’ can’t be more than an inch and half in diameter. Anyway - a very interesting option and quite a transformation.

53D3ABFC-E28C-432C-AC38-D83E2D2E2E32.jpg

Here she is on the beach!

https://youtu.be/5enYX-JmZ7U And a little video

Last edited by Bergen_Guy (6 Jul 2021 6:49 pm)

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#766 7 Jul 2021 1:48 pm

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 83

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Very cool, Guy. How many square feet do you have in your small main? (I assume you are using the stock 18 sq ft mizzen)

I wonder how this size compares with Martin's smaller rig.

Also, has anyone tried the big main alone in the middle step (as illustrated in the cat rig figure in the CLC plans)?

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#767 7 Jul 2021 3:36 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 284

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

The small main is 28 square feet. And yes, that’s the ‘stock’ mizzen.

No, I have not yet tried the big main alone yet, I really should! Since I first got saved by having a mizzen I have grown rather fond of it!

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#768 7 Jul 2021 4:40 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 324

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

So you have a small (mizzen as main), medium (that larger mizzen from the other boat), and the stock full-size mainsail to mess about with in all? That’s a nice set, gives you lots of options!!

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#769 7 Jul 2021 9:22 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 284

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Yes, that’s right SP! I have quite a few combinations to try - although the big main and medium mainsail-as-mizzen isn’t on my list of things to try!!

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#770 8 Jul 2021 12:17 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 324

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Um, no… I think putting your ‘medium’ sheet up in back would be rather unpredictable!

As to Chuck’s last question: my plan - such as it is - is to use the main alone with mast in rearward step before mounting the mizzen too. It’s been years since I’ve left solid land behind to go messing about with boats. So with this new one being rather an extreme ‘jump back inna water’ I’m taking baby steps! Mirage first, then add masts & spars, then add main alone, or maybe even the mizzen in that aft main step… kinda the ‘crawl, walk, run’ approach!

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#771 8 Jul 2021 8:43 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 284

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

At the risk of getting a bit off waterlust and onto sailing canoes in general, a chapter from Dixon Kemps manual is available online here

https://www.kayarchy.co.uk/html/09artic … ingchapter

in this he discusses the rigging, and sails of the Nautilus travelling canoe, as used by Warrington Baden-Powell.  Starting at page 515 is the discussion of the sails in particular.  It would give an entertaining evenings reading. It also looks like he has a main, mizzen and storm mizzen in his sail wardrobe, and moves them about between masts depending on the wind strength. Although the Nautilus is shorter, it's beam is only 2 inches less than that of the Waterlust canoe, so I probably reasonably comparable. I do note though Dixon Kemps comment that no theory can say how much sail area a sailing canoe should have, it's a matter of experiment, make the mast and spars 'long' and then try different sails to find what works for you!  (Page 506 and onwards!)

So - happy experimenting all!

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#772 8 Jul 2021 11:52 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 324

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Wonderful addition to this thread Guy, and that it’s available on-line so easily!

Be a great rainy day’s browsing, there’s a lot there for the time it’ll take to look it all over. Thanks!

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#773 9 Jul 2021 2:58 am

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 83

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Guy,

I feel like I have been following you all over the internet -- I was just looking at that Dixon Kemp page a couple of days ago myself!  I also saw your positive review on the Shellback's Library, but was sad to see that site appears to be down now...

I also observed that the double-reefed big main from the Waterlust has an area of 34 sq ft -- just six more than your small main, although I imagine yours is probably much easier to use!

Speaking of Dixon Kemp, he appears to be the source for Michael Storer's method of attaching the mainsail halyard to the yard which includes a loop around the mast, which I have found useful:

https://www.storerboatplans.com/tuning/ … lug-sails/

  -Chuck

Last edited by Chuck (9 Jul 2021 3:30 am)

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#774 9 Jul 2021 5:26 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 246

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks for that Guy. Fascinating!
For the record this is what I have ended up with.
Waterlust-proposed-sail-plan.jpg
(If it isn't readable I'll try again).

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#775 9 Jul 2021 5:28 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 246

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Oh dear! Can someone get rid of all the white space for me please!

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