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#551 31 Oct 2020 9:21 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Sorry to hear of your 'dip'! However, I am really interested in the recovery.
Did you have the two lockers either side of the Hobie drive filled with water? Where else was the water ballast?
Did you have any buoyancy bags in the cockpit area or anywhere else?
Thanks once again for doing all the heavy lifting on this issue. Rather you than me in a glacial fjord!

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#552 1 Nov 2020 9:57 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi! I set out with my two 12 litre ‘side tanks’ (small plastic Jerry cans) and one 10 litre Jerry can in the forward locker. I have the fenders tied in under the side decks too. I hadn’t tied the side tanks in this time, and one fell out during the second capsize. That means my second recovery was with 22 kg ballast, and quite a bit of water in the cockpit. The extra buoyancy from the fenders was not contributing to stability as it was out of the water while I was getting back in. I am also not sure how  much effect the ballast actually has when the cockpit is full, as there must be a huge amount more weight of water sloshing about inside than there is in the tanks. I think I might try an test without ballast at all next to see if actually it’s technique that is important (ie getting in towards the stern rather than from abeam the daggerboard) rather than the ballast. One thing I was very pleased about was that I had done quite a few test so I was pretty relaxed about getting upright and back in, despite the reasonably cold water.  I can’t promise more dunkings before spring.... will keep you posted if Neptune has other ideas!

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#553 1 Nov 2020 1:10 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks Guy.

From my dunking in the Norfolk Broads I would be very surprised if you can re-enter the boat without any ballast (unless the cockpit buoyancy was doing more than you think).

In the hour I was in the water I tried getting back onboard from every quarter!

I suspect that your ballast was doing more than you think, as the water sloshing around in the bottom of the boat would have always been on the 'downhill' side (ie the side you were trying to board on) and your ballast on the 'uphill' side  would have been the only counteracting force. I am assuming it was the 'downhill' ballast which fell out - if it was the 'uphill' one my theory is shot!

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#554 1 Nov 2020 3:06 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Martin,

Your theory is indeed correct. The high side tank (high when to boat capsized) fell out, and after righting the hull I got in from the side opposite the in place ballast tank.  On reflection I see that the ‘missing’ tank would also have helped me get back in, as that side of the boat was 12kg lighter than it would have been had the tank remained in place.  I should really have done a test trying to get in from the other side, but that seems to have skipped my mind in the ‘heat’ of the moment!!  The other tank was I guess sitting slightly to one side in the main storage locker, as that is is not properly secured, just had other stuff in there to stop if flying too far... that would also have assisted my climbing back on.

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#555 13 Nov 2020 8:45 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

SP - am I right in thinking you will be fitting your ship out for rowing?  How are your thoughts developing around oarlock placement. I am also thinking it might be fun to set Svale up for fixed seat rowing.

I think I would like to place my oarlocks about 6 inches further outboard than would be possible with oarlocks fitted directly to the shear clamp.

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#556 13 Nov 2020 12:06 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

That’s my plan, yes. But until I can get out onto the water next year everything about that’s on hold. There’re just too many details to consider as to placement without a better grasp on how everything needs to be positioned for best ergonomics.

I did add some solid wood reinforcement to the hull sides aft of the split frame #4’s behind the top strake if it turns out your estimate for 6” is necessary. Right now I think that’s a bit extreme but as you’ve actually had yours out on water you may be correct!

You get deeper into this, please post your findings! Once I’ve been out with the Mirage drive I may abandon the oars idea entirely....

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#557 15 Nov 2020 7:50 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Guy there's a thread over on the Woodenboat forum from a fellow countryman of yours asking why marine ply's so hard to find in your country.

I tried doing a Google but nothing worth mentioning shows up.

Can you elaborate on this question? Maybe post some links for where he might look for decent stuff?

I'd be hard pressed to believe it's just not sold in Norway....

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#558 17 Nov 2020 11:09 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Sump pump fitted! A bit of a struggle getting the pump angle right but it fits well, and is out of the way.

Lithium battery tight under the deck in the forward storage locker.
Gaia-pump-1.jpeg
Gasia-pump-2.jpeg
Gaia-pump-3.jpeg

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#559 23 Nov 2020 11:09 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

At risk of alienating  Waterlust aficionados, here is a fairly radical approach I have adopted to adjust ‘Gaia’ for my purposes.

In a nutshell I have found that the boat, as designed, is a sailing dinghy with auxiliary paddles; and I need a canoe with sails. This is no criticism of Dillon’s design or of FBC, as I always knew/hoped that I would need to make adjustments for my own use, and indeed the bespoke nature of the build was a large part of the attraction of the project for me. 

I am still a massive fan of this beautiful little vessel, but my early and short sail (documented previously) convinced me that I needed to make some radical changes to the rig to make it suitable for the type of sailing I envisage doing; sedate cruising (with two up) on the confined spaces of the Norfolk Broads and more adventurous solo sailing on the tidal and sometimes choppy North Sea rivers and estuaries where a capsize is out of the question. 

Apart from the buoyancy/ballast issues documented previously and comprehensively by Guy which make the boat difficult to right after a capsize, I felt that for me it was also overpowered by its rig in some fairly modest weather conditions, and reefing whilst underway is simply not practical, as in a rising wind I needed all my limbs and faculties to concentrate on keeping the boat upright and avoiding collisions. Fine for a youngster's racing dinghy on a lake, but not fine for an older gent's cruising craft in tidal/gusty/choppy/crowded sailing conditions. 

I therefore felt that the way to go was to halve the mainsail area by reducing the height of the main mast and the length of the spars, and replace the plywood/grp 3kg daggerboard with a 25kg steel one. 

With a smaller mainsail rig: -
1.     The sail is more controllable. 
2.     The boat less ‘tender’ when underway and easier to right.
3.     The boom is out of the way of the cockpit when sailing. 
4.     The mainsail and spars can be stored out of the way on the foredeck without the need for a cumbersome lazy-jack system. 
5.     All the spars and sails can be stored inside the boat when not in use.
6.     It is a one-handed operation to remove the main mast whilst underway.
7.     The shorter main mast allows Gaia to pass under most bridges on the Norfolk Broads.

I felt the laminated Polyester (Dacron) sails supplied were difficult to handle and not well suited to the craft as they were ‘slippery’ and difficult to fold on deck and I felt that they looked too modern for my boat. As I needed a new mainsail anyway for the reduced rig, I had two new sails made from ‘Clipper’ woven polyester canvass which not only is much more traditional – having the soft feel of a natural fabric - but also a much nicer cream colour. These were made by a local bespoke sailmaker James Lawrence in Essex. They were beautifully cut in a traditional way with five vertical panels for the main and four for the mizzen. 
Finally, as mentioned in an earlier post, I have fitted an electric sump pump, as although this could be considered something of a luxury, I feel that if I capsize, I am going to need all my concentration, strength and balance in righting, boarding and sailing the boat. Bailing will just be one task too many.

Gaia-rig-1a.jpeg
Gaia-rig-2a.jpeg
Gaia-rig-3a.jpeg
Gaia-rig-4a.jpeg

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#560 23 Nov 2020 3:07 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Interesting post Martin, thankyou. I don't see anything alienating in your adapting a different sail plan, something more in tune with your needs and the conditions you know you'll encounter. A hundred or more years ago when the concept of adding sails to canoes was a new one I suspect this kind of thing was commonplace.

What tipped me over when I first caught sight of the Waterlust project in development was the Mirage drive's place in the scheme of things. The sail rig was an attractive attribute, certainly an eye-catching one, if perhaps a bit bolder means of propulsion for me than back when I was 30 years younger and yearning to build an Oughtred MacGregor. I sincerely hope I didn't let my emotions push me into something that won't see much use once completed, while the possibility has crossed my mind now that my hull's essentially complete.

In your new images I note the lack of the midships mast pocket my CLC kit came with. Did you choose to leave it out? Was this included in your's? I've looked back at images Guy's posted but can't tell if it's there or not. The images of the prototypes lacks it so maybe the addition came later in the design's development?

I'd discussed the 'learning curve' using two sails with Dillon, we agreed that starting out with the main alone at the midships position - with a reef, maybe two, at first - would be a prudent choice for me. It'll be that Mirage drive that gets used most early on I suspect.

And there's still the amas accessory I want to explore, with a mind to add additional stability at the expense of adding complexity.

I must admit, now that the building part's mostly behind me now, leaves me yearning for what to take on next, why the prospect of adding amas is an appealing one if simply for the activity involved.

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#561 23 Nov 2020 4:58 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks SP. Great to hear from you again.

I do have the aft main mast step in position, but haven't cut the hole in the deck yet as I really like the yawl rig, especially as with my smaller rig the boom is now well clear of the cockpit.

I agree 100% with your Mirage drive comments and I promise you, you won't be disappointed. On my maiden trip I used it without sails with two up and it went like a dream. Fast and completely quiet and really easy to handle. Wonderful!

Having now been to my metal worker friend, he thinks 25KGs for the daggerboard is too heavy to handle, so I will start with an 8mm sheet and either add a 5mm bit either side at the bottom to increase weight or drill holes in the  top section (above waterline) to reduce. It is a trial and error thing so I will keep you posted.

I agree with the Amas. I am still interested in this, but I gather Dillon is a proud new father so his mind is on other things at the moment!

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#562 23 Nov 2020 5:48 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

I promise you, you won't be disappointed. On my maiden trip I used it without sails with two up and it went like a dream. Fast and completely quiet and really easy to handle. Wonderful!

Good to know! Thanks!

Having now been to my metal worker friend, he thinks 25KGs for the daggerboard is too heavy to handle....

I agree with your 'smithy on the weight aspect. Besides the fact that it'd put a good percentage of the weight up too high in my opinion to do much to improve things.

Once I get to the point of needing my d'board down I'll be looking to discern whether perhaps to let in a few pounds of lead cast to put it close or at the very bottom. 11.34 g/cm3 (0.4097 lb/in3) is worth about 15 lbs if 4 or 5" high right at the bottom.

I agree with the Amas. I am still interested in this, but I gather Dillon is a proud new father so his mind is on other things at the moment!

Likely as not a true thing!

Still, I've received great input from Mike Waters, just waiting out Dillon's attention for his thoughts.

Mike wants me to commit to building before releasing detailed plans. As I'm nowhere near close to getting waterborne I'm willing to distract myself with other projects for awhile this winter. Still have spars to finish, cordage & hardware to order, rubrails to complete then secure. May even build an alternate concept for a weighted d'board that incorporates Mike's idea for a 'breakaway' bottom end.

Last edited by spclark (23 Nov 2020 5:49 pm)

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#563 24 Nov 2020 6:03 am

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 6

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi All-

I found this forum online and am very interested in your experiences.  I purchased a Waterlust kit from CLC which I received around Oct 1st of this year, and have gotten to the point of glassing the bottom but have not yet put in the center console.  I hope to eventually (mostly) sail the boat here in Alabama on the Tennessee River (made wide with many large dams) and the associated impoundments nearby.  As I have read on Hugh Horton's website: "Sail when you can, paddle if you must!" I have some sailing experience, having learned in Tech dinghies, and crewed on some small racing boats in Annapolis.

I have also purchased the CLC sailing kit, and notice that the spars seem like they may be fairly heavy.  (But that is only my inexperienced intuition) Given the posts I have read here about Guy's experiences after capsize, I am thinking that spar weight might be something to think about.  Have any of you considered hollowing out the main mast?

You guys have done an amazing job with your builds, and have given a first time boatbuilder like me lots of inspiration!

Last edited by Chuck (25 Nov 2020 1:38 am)

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#564 24 Nov 2020 6:26 am

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 6

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

The other topic I am curious about is making adequate room for two people: Before I read Martin's post on the subject (making the cockpit shorter and sitting on the deck behind the peddler), I had thought that it might be a good idea to make the cockpit _longer_ by one frame (preserving the long stringers and taking them one frame further back) However, this could quite possibly be at the expense of the boat's trim being out by being too heavy aft...

Last edited by Chuck (24 Nov 2020 6:27 am)

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#565 24 Nov 2020 7:52 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Welcome Chuck! (Keep us updated on your progress).

Spars:- I wouldn't make the booms and yards any slimmer, but yes, you could hollow out the mast and this would definitely be beneficial. In my early correspondence with Dillon he recommended this but I didn't feel my carpentry skills were up to it!

Two up:- Again, I discussed this with Dillon at an early stage and he recommended making the cockpit smaller to keep the weight forward (as you have guessed). To this end, he adjusted the design slightly for me. However, (depending on your and your crew's weight of course!) I am not convinced that the trim would be too badly affected, so I would try it and see.

Daggerboard:- This is an interesting link http://www.pdracer.com/keel/  From this I see that a rule of thumb is that the daggerboard should be about 5% the area of the sail(s). By my calculation, with the Waterlust yawl rig the daggerboard size is well short of this.. By coincidence, my reduced sail area is almost exactly the 'right' size for the daggerboard….so we will see!

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#566 24 Nov 2020 11:44 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Martin,

What a neat looking rig! I don''t think you risk alienating the rest of us here at all! I am certainly very interested to hear how you get on with your modifications. I am already jealous of your electric bilge pump!  The smaller rig looks really neat, and I could imaging that when coupled with a heavier dagger board the vessel should be transformed. I hope you like the result. The sails certainly look nice, and  the smaller rig overall looks good on the hull.  I agree that really the waterlust with the 'big rig' is more of a performance dinghy than an exploration and relaxation boat once the wind starts to get up. I would say with the full rig up, you need to be a competent lazer sailor to be comfortable in anything above a very gentle breeze. To that end I am building a pram dinghy from plans for my boys to learn about sailing in from a more stable platform. It seems boatbuilding may be addictive!

Chuck! Welcome indeed, it's great to hear from more waterlust builders wherever they are in the world.  I think that hollowing out the mast could be a good plan if you have the inclination. Mine is made from a single solid piece, I could cut it in half and hollow out the middle with a router, but that is a long way from the top of my list at the moment.

I have sailed the 'standard' cockpit version with two people (three people if you include a fair weather trip with myself and two kids!), it's fine, but I wouldn't want to be sitting any further aft without moving something heavy further forward.

From here, I have done very little since my last dunking, mostly as I have been working on the pram. I got some new ropework that needs neat whippings etc, and then probably fabric toe straps, before looking at a water ballast system.

Onwards all! Great to see and hear how everyone's projects are progressing.

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#567 24 Nov 2020 4:00 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Welcome Chuck!

Another Waterlust builder here in the US built his mast hollow using douglas fir:

Hollow_Mast_2.jpg

Hollow_Mast.jpg

So it's possible!

I've made my spars from some sitka spruce I'd acquired decades ago, the main mast's solid with the addition of a 1" band of carbon fiber laminated underneath the two outer plies up to about 2' short of the mast's top. If I recall correctly the tapered & radiused blank weighs about 12 lbs. Not sure how much less it would have ended up had I hogged out channels inside first, but as my plan includes hanging an empty gallon water bottle atop the mast when sailing's first attempted I'm hoping that's enough to keep mast & sail afloat once I get to capsize-testing next year!

Martin's endeavors to create a smaller sail plan I applaud loudly! To my thinking it's entirely in keeping with the spirit of the Waterlust's gestation.

On a side tangent, I heard from Dillon this morning that he's returned to office work and will soon be completing CLC's ama/aka kit development. So if this is of interest to any of you I think he'd like to hear of it!

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#568 25 Nov 2020 1:44 am

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 6

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Martin's photo of the electric bilge pump reminded me of a figure from Baden-Powell's "Canoe Traveling: Log of a Cruise in the Baltic, and Practical Hints on Building and Fitting Canoes"

IMG_8131D.jpeg

Last edited by Chuck (25 Nov 2020 1:50 am)

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#569 25 Nov 2020 1:50 am

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 6

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Here is my progress so far

IMG_8100D.jpegIMG_8091D.jpeg

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#570 25 Nov 2020 11:54 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Nice work Chuck!

I really like the Baden Powell pump. 'Some miles from land' made me smile.I think we are a bit more risk averse these days!

Here is a really easy project for the long winter  nights (Guy!). Leathering spars. I had never done this before, but it is actually much easier than it looks and is worthwhile especially with the square section Waterlust spars. There are numerous instruction videos online. I used cheap 2mm thick leather offcuts (Ebay).

A couple of tips. Hold it in place with a cable tie. Tighten as you go along as if you leave it to the end and find you have snagged something you have a lot of undoing to do.

Leathering.jpeg

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#571 25 Nov 2020 1:05 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Good Progress Chuck, looks like you're off to a sound start with your build. Feel free to ask questions of course if you can't find an answer somewhere back in the multitude of posts on this thread.

Martin I've just heard back from your sailmaker in Essex. They've provided a not-at-all-unreasonable quote for a set built like yours, even with shipping! Thanks for that effort BTW. I'd briefly considered a smaller set but after already paying off the pair I bought through CLC even before I began my build last year I had to consider cost first, utility later! And with an ama package in the offing (whether from Dillon's creative involvement or that of Mike Waters) there's an alternate stability tangent in the offing.

So you built an entirely new set of spars to suit your reduced sail set? Did you plan your new sails to these first, or have your loft suggest dimensions to fit their proposed design?

Did you gain experience with leathering in your other sailing experience? Jeff Perkins (another US-based Waterlust builder) did a fine job of it with his project, inspired me to take on the challenge. It'll be awhile yet for me this winter, once I have my spars farther along.

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#572 25 Nov 2020 3:33 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hi SP.

Yes. James Lawrence Sailmakers are lovely people and with generations of experience, really understand lug rigs.
I gave Mark at James Lawrence all the measurements based on mast and spar size I wanted  and he did the rest. So the rig is not scientifically designed (using centres of effort etc), but I reckoned that if the mast is long enough I can move the rig backwards or forwards to address any weather or lee helm issues. We will see! You can of course have all my dimensions etc but as you have a bit of time , I suggest you wait until I have tried it out on the water to make sure I haven't made a terrible mistake!

I re-used the yard (cut down) but had an old  round and tapered dinghy mast I adapted for the main mast. I ordered a new 40mm square boom as I felt the original one was a bit skinny and bought a new 50mm mizzen mast (using  the original one for a boom). I made this round to match the main mast. In this way I have beefed up the rig a bit as the new woven sails are marginally heavier than the laminated ones.

No. No previous experience at leathering. It is that easy. You drill 2mm holes in the leather 10mm apart and 5mm from the edge. Find some 1mm whipping twine and two 2mm needles and off you go. No wetting or gluing required. With your level of workmanship you won't find it much of a challenge.

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#573 Yesterday 3:56 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 171

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Here is the 8mm mild steel daggerboard (approx 15kgs). This is a manageable weight.
I will clad the upper part with ply to protect the casing and make it the correct thickness so it doesn't rattle around. I am guessing that this weight at this distance from the hull on the 'right' side of the boat  should improve stability. I'll let you know as soon as I am brave enough to go back into the water.
Steel-daggerboard-1.jpeg

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#574 Yesterday 4:38 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Very nicely ‘smithed Martin! I envy your metalworking abilities!

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#575 Today 4:14 am

Chuck
Member
Registered: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 6

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Very impressive!  I'm sure that 'board will definitely add to stability -- do let us know how it goes!

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