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#451 23 Sep 2020 8:33 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 170

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I have been thinking about this further and wondered whether, peversley, too much buoyancy may have been the problem not too little.

I had stuffed three 1 meter long buoyancy bags in the space behind the cockpit, and the fore and aft lockers were dry, as was the main locker behind the mast (where I had installed a rubber gasket under the lid). In addition, I have a 60mm thick insulating foam sheet on the floor in the cockpit underneath the seat.

I have a dim recollection that (many years ago!) when I learnt to sail in Mirrors, Lazers and Merlin Rockets, when you capsized, the buoyancy was such that you could almost swim into the semi-submerged boat.

When righted, Gaia had relatively little water in the bottom (about 6 to 9 inches) and this meant that the combination of compromised stability and high freeboard prevented re-boarding.

My next experiment will be to explore the two extremes ie
1. To see if it is possible to board the boat fully rigged from the water without any water inside.
2. To take out all additional buoyancy and submerge the boat as fully as possible.

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#452 23 Sep 2020 8:42 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

That is good thinking Martin!  I almost wrote a post to ask you how much water was in the hull when she was righted. I have seen somewhere a post suggesting that it was important that a capsized hull not sit too high in the water, they suggested that sufficient buoyancy should be concentrated in the ends of the boat rather than the midships area where the vessel is widest to allow for easier capsize recovery. (I may have missed something - and I have not yet re-found the article)

I did remember when I did the capsize drills without the rig that she seemed to float very high in the water, although with no additional buoyancy and no rig the hull did fill pretty much up to the top of the centreboard case if I remember correctly.  I think your idea for experiments sound very interesting.  I imagine there is some sort of 'ideal' floatation level where the hull is not being constantly swamped by waves, but is also low enough in the water that you can get back in. Good luck with your investigations.

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#453 23 Sep 2020 10:47 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 170

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

This is quite interesting. https://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/saili … 38740.html
I like the idea of a 'recovery tank'.

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#454 23 Sep 2020 11:35 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Agree on what they’re telling about over at songofthepaddle. Thanks for that link. And this thread’s taking an interesting tangent off onto the subject of built-in safety aids, which may require some ‘tuning’ depending on each individual’s needs.

If you haven’t already Martin I’ll be alerting Dillon to what you’ve been telling us here.

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#455 23 Sep 2020 11:42 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 170

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Thanks SP. I am keeping Dillon in the loop and will post his response when I get it.

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#456 23 Sep 2020 11:55 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

It seems intuitive that too much buoyancy is nearly as bad as too little.

With a craft that’s floating so high in the water after a capsize that the dunked operator has difficulty managing both righting and re-entry, there ought to be some balance regained by an additional mass of water in the swamped hull tempering its movement once righted.

The narrow beam of a Waterlust, along with its roundish hull section, doesn’t afford much ‘rolling resistance’ when most of it’s riding relatively high on the water but without an operator aboard. If its load rating of 400 lbs / 180 kg includes operators and gear, if that then becomes all water with the operator somewhere alongside any effort to re-board will inevitably cause the swamped hull to take on yet more weight until some of the water inside is removed.

I wonder if that load rating’s on the conservative side? Allows a margin of safety such that 400 lbs of water still leaves the hull - when upright - able to take on additional weight without going under?

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#457 23 Sep 2020 2:56 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 170

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Here is Dillon's response.

'I don't think you've made the boat too buoyant - but I'm concerned the buoyancy might be in the wrong place. Having water in the boat is helpful in a) preventing the boat from sailing off while you board and b) keeping the boat upright. However, by adding insulation to the bottom of the boat the center of gravity of the retained water is now raised by 60mm, thereby making the boat significantly less stable. If you were looking to add flotation, the best place would be to the undersides of the deck (as high as possible), as that will force the boat to float more upright. The more buoyancy in the bottom, the more she'll want to capsize.

I've found the best way to re-enter the boat is at the aft end of the cockpit after the mains'l has been doused. Dropping the sail significantly lowers the center of gravity and gives you plenty of time to get sorted before setting sail again. If it't not too breezy you can leave the mizzin up so the boat stays pointed into the wind upon recovery. Having parrels on the yard and boom (or some comparable arrangement) to keep the spars attached to the mast is helpful - otherwise, they may wander off and cause you more grief as you right the boat'.

He also added this:-

'Just another thought I had - how are your buoyancy bags held in place? Are there lashing points? If so, I'm thinking it wouldn't be terribly difficult to come up with some arrangement where they could be quickly, and easily, removed from the stern compartment and "snapped" or "buckled" to the exterior of the boat, thereby acting as training wheels to help keep the boat upright as you board. Just a thought!'

I have asked a few follow-up questions and I will post his answers when they come through.

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#458 23 Sep 2020 4:42 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I had to ponder that 60 mm of padding when I read it... maybe you meant just 6mm?

60 seems like quite a bit! I can understand how that’d affect stability once water’d entered the cockpit, with you innit or not!

I may have a cushion of some kind at most, besides the wicker-woven wood seat I sourced from CLC for pedaling.

I got the same reply as you from Dillon, need to give the ‘repositionable buoyancy’ some serious thought!

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#459 24 Sep 2020 7:09 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 170

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

No. I meant 60mm. ie I had just over 2" of polystyrene just underneath the pedalling seat to raise it to a comfortable height to pedal.

You will find that if you sit too low, not only will you get a wet bottom, but your legs will chafe against the centreboard casing when you pedal and in my view, you sit too low in the boat to effectively operate the sailing controls.

I have now removed the polystyrene and we will see if this marginal amount makes a difference.

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#460 24 Sep 2020 11:50 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Raised seat. That I can understand the need for.

I’ve tried ‘dry-fitting’ my body in my completed hull a couple of times since the deck went on, can see the reasoning behind your idea. My plan is to use wood cross-pieces that support the folding wood-and-caned-seat+back seat I sourced from CLC (same as used in their two prototypes) at a level above that of resting directly on the bottom.

Are you using something similar, or some kind of folding camp seat that puts your bottom closer to the cockpit floor? Or just sitting on the floor with nothing underneath?

I think I posted at least one image here earlier of the mahogany ‘caps’ I added to those two longitudinal frames running full length of cockpit. My idea was to add more surface area to the upper edges of those frames that could then be used to better support the seat once some cross-pieces were added to span between them. Their added weight was countered some by my routing foot-size holes into those frames that hopefully will serve as hiking footholds when the time comes. Those were the original concept, the added mahogany was to reinforce the perforated frames as well as increasing the surface area my feet would be bearing upon whilst hiking out. There are four toe-holds in each frame.

Save you from having to search back in time for this:

Cockpit_Toe-holds.jpg

So that 60mm of flotation’s not full-cockpit floor, just a smallish piece measuring 50 x 60 cm? I can’t see how that size a piece would affect swamped-hull buoyancy enough to make re-entry difficult, but it certainly wouldn’t help either.

Last edited by spclark (24 Sep 2020 11:57 am)

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#461 24 Sep 2020 4:23 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 170

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

My feeling is that an amas like this one http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/products/sa … utriggers/ is essential for the Waterlust if you are planning to do the sort of estuary and perhaps coastal sailing I would like to do. Consequently I have mentioned this to Dillon and his response was as follows:-

'I was chatting with another customer the other day about amas for the Waterlust. They're still very much on my mind, but I haven't had a chance to devote any resources to developing them beyond a few sketches and a quick design study. As I told Stephen: with so many projects on the front burner it's hard to convince the brass to spend money on it, so I'll have to keep chipping away "after school". 

That said, the solution is quite similar to what Solway Dory does with their sailing canoes (the link you reference). These are excellent "training wheels" to keep the boat upright in the event of a snagged sheet, crash jibe, etc. They're easy to mount and add almost no drag when paddling (or pedaling), and they look quite nice if proportioned properly. Full-length amas would turn the Waterlust into a trimaran, which would increase the sailing loads, set-up time, weight, and difficulty with maneuvering in tight spaces'.

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#462 24 Sep 2020 6:25 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Yeah, I’m the ‘other customer’ Dillon’s referring to. Brought up the ama approach awhile back, thinking they’d be a great aid to inspire confidence at the beginning with a newly-built Waterlust as well as an add-on for when conditions might be more ‘intimidating’.

I wonder how the Solway compares to a Waterlust in length, beam and displacement? Amas ought not be difficult to fabricate, either by stitch’n’glue or epoxy+fiberglass over shaped EPS, either with a thin-skin ply deck bonded atop.

Questions having mostly to do with size: length, displacement, and positioning relative to Waterlust’s centerboard.

Be an interesting ‘winter’ project! Maybe somehow we can get some numbers nailed down that'd give us a grasp of the variables....

Last edited by spclark (25 Sep 2020 12:07 am)

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#463 25 Sep 2020 8:59 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 170

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

After much head scratching I think I have worked out why Gaia was so difficult to right; and it wasn't the polystyrene seat pad - although that can't have helped!

Dillon advised me that it was essential to drop the rig once capsized, which I did, BUT I have just realised that the length of my lazyjack lines prevent the rig dropping completely onto the deck. This is great when sailing, but as it has the effect of transfering the weight of the yard,sail and boom to the top of the mast, therby amplifying the pendulum effect when the mast is anything other than perpendicular.Thus with my weight on the gunwhale, together with the weight of the rig (leveraged by the mast) and the water inside the boat all on one side Gaia didn't stand a chance!

I am still interested in the amas to help prevent capsizing in the first place, but I am sure that with a minor alteration to the lazyjcks the boat will be much easier to right.

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#464 26 Sep 2020 4:38 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I’ve opened a dialogue with Mike Waters, a noted Naval Architect & popular multi-hull designer about his thoughts on adding amas to the CLC Waterlust design.

As they produce and market one of Mike’s designs I’ve learned:

https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/oth … n-Kit.html

- there’s an existing working relationship between them that may facilitate the development of this kind of accessory.

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#465 26 Sep 2020 7:09 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Hiya Gents - I was out again for a short sail in some proper wind today! What a blast. At times I was wishing I had reefed, but for the most it was great fun, and a steep learning curve in the new type.  First off, I love the yawl rig. I managed early in i the sail to almost tangle with a moored motor boat (I missed a tack at an inopportune moment) and let go of the tiller, which promptly disappeared under the hull as I gained sternway. I made a quick decision to drop the main, and suddenly things were  much calmer. Svale drifting backwards while I lay on the aft deck to retrieve said tiller. Then, up with the main again and off we went! We were flying, I put in a long beat to windward followed by a lovely downwind leg.  So - what have I learned. Your hiking toe holds SP are going to be a godsend. I am already thinking about how to fit toe straps. The tip from Martin on moving the sail further forward on the yard worked a treat and the sail sets very well now. Off the wind we had some quiet moments and some amazing speed where the wind funnelled between islands. Wow.  She is a busy boat in a blow and I wouldn’t fancy being two up without reefing her well

Here’s a little video https://youtu.be/2JKlP8gKTA4

I had planned a capsize test, but didn’t have time in the end, maybe tomorrow! Thanks the the tip on getting the rig down, I will try rig up first and then rig down...

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#466 26 Sep 2020 7:15 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Bergen_Guy wrote:

...I will try rig up first and then rig down...

Uh, perhaps in the interest of safety first, last, and always, I might undertake to reverse that Order of Business!

Do yourself a favor and drop the rig for your first dunking. No sense getting things off to a bad start if you find yourself overwhelmed by the upright rig after taking a soaking.

And thanks for the comment re: hiking footholds. I remember to well even after 50 years how I had to find some means to not only strip the floor out of that small scow I built but also mount straps for the feets when afloat in a decent breeze.

I try hard to learn from my past mistakes, as well as those of others....

Good luck with your capsize testing and have fun! Let us all know how things turn out with that please!

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#467 27 Sep 2020 5:03 am

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 170

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Dillon's latest emai re. amas. (I told him we might have interest from four people not realising Stephen and SP were one and the same!).

Hi Martin,

I'll broach the subject again at our next design meeting. The "Stephen" I'm referring to is the "SP" of the forums. But that's enough interest as far as I'm concerned to make it worth pursuing!

That's a helpful note re: the lazy jacks. I agree that a longer line, or quick release mechanism, will help lower the heeling moment of the boat and thereby make recovery easier.

I'll be in touch when I have more information!

Well done Guy! I missed the post on the hiking footholds. Is there a photo you could re-post SP?

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#468 27 Sep 2020 10:28 am

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Martin, the hiking footholds are the holes in the longitudinal stringers in the photo a few post earlier. I think Dillon could think about them become a part of the kit...

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#469 27 Sep 2020 11:54 am

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Right... Martin, scroll back to post #480; that image is shown again there for convenient access.

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#470 27 Sep 2020 2:35 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Just back from a sail followed by a capsize test.

0C42FACB-C23B-4387-9E7D-80951AC7551A.jpeg

I had very much the same experience as Martin. I managed on ‘dry capsize’ Where I stepped over the side of the hull, onto the centreboard. I did this with the rig up, and managed to right the boat again with me in it. The boat is rather unstable and took quite a bit of water on. I think had I done this away from shore I would have dropped the main at this point and emptied the boat. All following attempts to right and re-enter the boat from the water failed. I tried rig up - that went right back over quick as a flash. I then dropped the mainsail, but even with that in the water on the opposite side that I was trying to get in from, I wasn’t able to keep the boat upright while trying to get back in. Next step to test would be taking the mast out of its step, but I am not convinced I would be able to get it back in, so that approach may not be genuinely helpful.

I must admit this is a bit of a blow, as I had plans to use this boat at sea. For now, let’s keep thinking and testing, reef early and try our very best to stay upright...

Also my very beautiful rudder downhaul fair lead parted, it was clearly not strong enough. I fear a plastic replacement may be the most expedient.

My son did take some film of the capsize drills, they will take some editing before I can share them!

A22EE035-48EE-43FF-96A6-79E5D4016AAD.jpeg

C901D341-EAF1-44D2-954D-E4C6C38500A8.jpeg

Last edited by Bergen_Guy (27 Sep 2020 2:42 pm)

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#471 27 Sep 2020 3:04 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

I'll be further shaping my spars later this morning while the second coat of gloss red on the coaming dries further before I flip the hull... maybe later today... to continue with painting the hull....

Painted_Deck_Forward.jpeg

Paint_Progress_092620.jpg

(B_G I've taken the liberty to send that upset image of you to Mike Waters. I've pointed him at this thread for a better understanding of what our concerns are at this point.)

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#472 27 Sep 2020 3:51 pm

MartinC
Member
Registered: 3 Apr 2020
Posts: 170

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Sorry to hear you had the same experience as I did Guy. I thought it might be that I was just old and weak. (I certainly felt very old and weak the day after!).

I was as deflated as you after my experience, but don't dispair, Dillon is now well on the way to designing akas, and I am sure that this is the way for us all to go for the long term. (It wouldn't harm dropping him an email to speed up the design process). I actually think that Dillon will design something quite attractive that will enhance the appearance of the boat as well as being functionable.

I don't think I would contemplate removing the mast at sea unless it was as a last resort and a 'Mayday moment', as I am sure you would have a hell of a job getting it back in again!

Well done SP with your paintwork - don't get any splashes on your beautiful Mini!

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#473 27 Sep 2020 5:58 pm

Bergen_Guy
Member
Registered: 6 Feb 2020
Posts: 221

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

SP - that is starting to look rather special! I love the colours you have put together. Can’t  wait to see the shear strake coloured!

I will be interested to see how these akas come out. Let’s see. I had half a mind to do a write up of the boat for small boat magazine, but I think I will hold off till this issue is sorted!

Last edited by Bergen_Guy (27 Sep 2020 6:03 pm)

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#474 27 Sep 2020 6:24 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

MartinC wrote:

Well done SP with your paintwork - don't get any splashes on your beautiful Mini!

HARDLY! That's my wife, Susanne's.

Bought 'off the boat' while it was still in transit back in 2006. Mine's outside, as it's lived pretty much it's entire existence since I bought it 'off the lot' back in December of '12. Mine has 20,000 more miles than her's too....

BTW I'm a lifelong fan of the late Sir Alex - this was my first MINI:

My_1st_MINI.jpeg

1965 Austin Cooper 1275-S Mk 1, bought used w/ 18,000 miles on the clock back in 1966. Been thrashed by prior owner but still had a ton of laughs for me to discover the years I drove it!

With your comments today about where Dillon's thinking is as of now, it may be worth getting him into the conversation I'm having with Mike Waters. Here's a link to his web page where you can review his designs and other thoughts on various related topics:

https://smalltridesign.com/

Be a shame to waste anyone's time rehashing concepts the others may have failed to consider or worse, have reservations about.

Last edited by spclark (27 Sep 2020 6:46 pm)

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#475 27 Sep 2020 6:31 pm

spclark
Member
From: "Driftless" Wisconsin USA
Registered: 19 Mar 2020
Posts: 195

Re: Waterlust sailing canoe in Norway

Bergen_Guy wrote:

SP - that is starting to look rather special! I love the colours you have put together. Can’t  wait to see the shear strake coloured!

Thanks!

Be that same gloss red as I've used for the coaming, daggerboard top and rudder. Rudder cassette and yolk are the muted glossy yellow of the lower strakes. Hatch toggles'll be gloss red once I get around to them....

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